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Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil Sidious Send a noteboard - 02/03/2010 04:38:06 PM
Ishamael's is the study of good and evil. Exactly what is needed to understand the Dark One. He may not understand biology as well as Aginor, the human mind as well as Graendal, political and military strategy as well as Demandred. But he understands the nature of good and evil better than anyone.


I disagree. In my opinion, Ishamael would argue that any distinction made between Good and Evil is ultimately meaningless. And therefore he has no interest at all in trying to define such a distinction.

Ishamael is a Philosopher, and his specific area of study in the AoL was "meaning" - particularly, the meaning of life. And, in the course of pursuing that study, he convinced himself (through what seemed to him to be a logical train of thought) that all acts & endeavors - essentially, all existance - is futile and meaningless. That's what Rand was referring to when he told Ishamael in TGS: "You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didn't it?"

Look at the books Ishamael was purported to have written in the AoL (before he turned to the Shadow). I don't have the Guide with me, so I can't quote the book names exactly, but they were all essentially about the meaninglessness of life. The weren't about Good and Evil at all.

Ishamael is the very epitome of a nihilist. And that nihilism makes him want to destroy the Wheel, and therefore destroy the cycle of birth, futility, meaninglessness, and death it brings (as he sees it).

I don't believe Ishamael turned to the Shadow because he has any special regard for the DO. He turned to the Shadow because his goals coincide with the DO's. Siding with the DO gives him the best opportunity to fulfill his destiny, as he sees it. And, he tries to lure others to the Shadow for the same reason.



Ishamael is the ultimate villain and minion for the Dark One. He believes in pure evil, knows what it means to break the Wheel, and still supports it. This makes him unique among the Forsaken - the rest still think that they'll rule in hell.

In part, I therefore disagree with Shannow. I think Ishamael, like every great philosopher in our history, is a step higher in mental functioning. He is more intelligent than the other Forsaken, and probably every character we know. The fact that he chose the wrong side is curious, except for the fact that he thinks it is the right side. That's possibly why his peers think he's mad.
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Ishamael's nature - 01/03/2010 05:27:48 PM 1763 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature - 01/03/2010 07:15:54 PM 787 Views
Sisyphus *NM* - 02/03/2010 02:27:06 AM 262 Views
Not a question of intelligence. Rather, a different way of thinking... - 01/03/2010 07:23:37 PM 801 Views
I agree, except with your statement on what Ishamael's area of expertise is ... - 02/03/2010 03:17:13 PM 633 Views
Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil - 02/03/2010 04:38:06 PM 656 Views
Are you saying that philosophers are inherently more intelligent than other academics? - 02/03/2010 04:53:13 PM 553 Views
Maybe - 02/03/2010 06:00:20 PM 617 Views
Crap - 02/03/2010 08:58:12 PM 611 Views
I think the averages are averages. - 03/03/2010 01:14:41 AM 535 Views
Re: Crap - 05/03/2010 08:46:56 PM 509 Views
Re: Crap - 07/03/2010 11:36:16 PM 480 Views
I love IQ tests. - 08/03/2010 01:18:10 AM 478 Views
Re: Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil - 02/03/2010 05:30:43 PM 567 Views
Re: Which makes him the most evil of the Forsaken... or the least evil - 07/03/2010 11:31:14 PM 517 Views
I'm not an expert on nihilism, but ... - 08/03/2010 05:22:33 PM 672 Views
I doubt that. - 08/03/2010 01:21:32 AM 491 Views
Re: I doubt that. - 08/03/2010 12:41:43 PM 476 Views
Yep, I agree. - 08/03/2010 05:58:03 PM 569 Views
This ties in with his parallel to Lucifer. - 03/03/2010 12:57:37 AM 556 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature - 02/03/2010 01:49:19 AM 609 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature - 02/03/2010 02:51:44 PM 549 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature - 02/03/2010 07:31:32 PM 529 Views
Both of us are saying the same thing - 03/03/2010 01:46:57 PM 493 Views
sorry, took "evil" too literally and - 03/03/2010 07:02:01 PM 478 Views
Found a great theory about Ishamael and his logic on theoryland - 02/03/2010 02:48:02 PM 877 Views
Nice - 02/03/2010 04:41:05 PM 545 Views
Impressive - 02/03/2010 07:24:09 PM 539 Views
I have to disagree on one thing, at the very least... - 08/03/2010 01:47:47 AM 538 Views
Re: I have to disagree on one thing, at the very least... - 08/03/2010 12:37:27 PM 483 Views
Yes, but Shai'tan himself is outside the Pattern. - 08/03/2010 06:23:19 PM 482 Views
Re: Yes, but Shai'tan himself is outside the Pattern. - 09/03/2010 01:54:26 PM 467 Views
Because there is a Creator. - 09/03/2010 05:57:16 PM 461 Views
faulty assumptions - 10/03/2010 05:05:23 AM 466 Views
Impossible. - 10/03/2010 06:22:43 AM 461 Views
maybe an analogy will help - 10/03/2010 12:55:37 PM 879 Views
But therein lies the problem. - 10/03/2010 04:58:42 PM 460 Views
your own argument is self defeating - 11/03/2010 08:10:36 AM 488 Views
Anyway I just realized this point is irrelevant to the original theory - 11/03/2010 08:14:20 AM 466 Views
Yes, I said that at the very beginning: *NM* - 11/03/2010 05:44:19 PM 217 Views
Your reasons and mine for irrelevancy are different.. *NM* - 12/03/2010 05:12:52 AM 206 Views
Re: Ishamael's nature - 02/03/2010 10:43:16 PM 546 Views
I don't know if this has any basis in fact... - 04/03/2010 02:44:26 AM 611 Views

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