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Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 15/02/2010 02:23:57 PM
Elayne doesn't have to rant. As queen, she is automatically the highest authority who no one can question. She is not going to have Dyelin and Luan writing letters of disapproval and threatening trouble in the Hall over perfectly valid decisions she makes.
Elayne is not an elected leader. Those are supposed to be responsive to the wishes of their followers. Yet, between the right-of-birth queen and the elected Amyrlin, which one has shown more concern over the opinions and wishes of the ordinary people and adherence to the principle of rule by law? Elayne. As far as Egwene is concerned, hers is the only opinion that matters, except insofar as someone has the political clout to make life difficult for her.

And I'd argue that Egwene's speech rebuts your point by itself.
Yes, because political speeches ALWAYS come true.

However useless you think the Tower to be, however useless the Tower has been, Egwene doesn't intend to let it be so. She means to make it a force to be reckoned with against the Shadow. Should she succeed, as she is indeed well poised to, the need for reunification of the Tower, and her own presence at the helm of that effort is justified. Ranting about it before she can even try do that, before we have any chance of knowing what role the Tower might play, is absurd.
But Elaida had similar intentions. So why is it so necessary for Egwene to win. And as for her determination to take the Tower to glory, how does that make her any better than the Hunters of the Horn who we keep seeing being held in contempt for basically the same thing as Egwene suggests in her speech - win glory by contributing to the Last Battle? Actually her speech suggests she will be a nuisance, angling to get an impressive role for the Tower, and trying to win big victories, rather than shutting her mouth and managing the Tower and keeping Aes Sedai out of Rand's hair.

In what way? Morghase's presence with Perrin means nothing.
I was referring to his saying that Perrin has everything in hand. Elayne does not understand the issues of the "rebellion" yet so she is not committed to action, and Perrin has no intention of contesting her rule over the Two Rivers. He said as much in tGS. RtDB!

But that is your interpretation, without even reading the last two books. Given the time devoted to Andor and the Tower, and given that two major protagonists have been involved in both situations, it is reasonable to assume the author has a purpose, and both these places will have a major role to play in the Last Battle.
So you have just refuted your own objection.

The same case can be made for Egwene. Letting her do her own thing, and succeeding in a way that will deliver around 2000 channelers to him completely cleansed of all Darkfriends, is certainly better than having Egwene contributing in no big way by staying around Rand!
Exactly. It's a personal quest, not Egwene handling a major part of Rand's fight elsewhere, as Moiraine alludes of others right before Alcair Dal.

Ummm... what? She did not bend to Aes Sedai pressure. Contrary to their urgings, she supported Rand once he promised to let Elayne rule, and didn't do anything to oust him from Andor.
Elayne claims that Rand's declaration in favor of her was what "restrained" Dyelin. Dyelin couldn't do anything about Rand, that was why she did not try to oust him. She and her recalcitrant buddies cooperated in securing Andor from Elenia & co, but that does not make them cooperative towards Rand. Dyelin has personal ties to Elayne, and a genuine reluctance to assume the throne, which is why she was not out causing trouble with the others.

As for Elayne, only you'd be blinded enough to think she won't be Tower influenced. For god's sake, with no prompting, she wishes that Rand would bend knee to Egwene!
She said that problems could be solved, and only as a point of comparison with "Elaida's" decree warning people away from Rand. Objectively speaking, she is right. She did NOT encourage him to kneel to Rand, and we see from the reactions of Siuan & Myrelle to the rumor that he has knelt to Elaida that she IS correct in that it would solve problems. She was the one who first voiced the idea that Salidar's best claim over the Tower would have been a tie to Rand, back in tFoH. She never said she wanted Rand there in the big picture, she merely noted that it would be an advantage in the struggle for control of the Tower, but Rand would not even do that to help his childhood friend, much less a former Red who wanted him arrested.

Egwene herself hasn't wished for any such thing, and has said quite a few times that Rand can get things done well enough, but only needs guidance.
The sheer arrogance of assuming she is in anyway qualified to give him any of the guidance he needs suggests exactly the problem we skeptics have with the Egewnist scenario that she is going to peacefully cooperate with Rand. He is her superior politically, in governing, in military matters and in the affairs of the world. In what area can she guide him? Elayne's wish to guide him was grounded on his then-inexperienced state, and her lifetime of training for what he was going through, or her being born and raised to rule the country he was currently trying to administer. Nynaeve has the perspective of an older friend who watched him grow up. What does Egwene have? She less experienced in everything except Tower-specific politics, and he needs no guidance for manuevering in the Hall. After all, shouldn't Egwene be solving those problems FOR him?

With no prompting from Egwene required, Elayne is going to be a very Tower influenced ruler, simply because she cares for the Tower too. Given her close personal friendship with Egwene, and the fact that the two will soon be sisters-in-law, Andor will now be more aligned with the Tower than it has even been in its history!
Aligned, but not ruled by. Fellow-travelers, not a Tar Valon protectorate. She herself says Egwene's authority over her would be personal only, which she views as a useful method of humility. She asserts that she will not give her land to the Tower. Nynaeve notes that Elayne believes in the Tower, "but she believed in Rand, too..." Elayne has never taken the Tower's side over Rand, if only because she has been too removed from the conflict between them to pick, but she was the one arguing for the rebels to proclaim their loyalty to Rand, she was the one who sought something to make the Hall support Rand. She has never tried to use Rand to help the rebels.

So, as you yourself seemed to have realized in between all your muddled arguments, there is no point discussing this till we see where Elayne and Egwene take their respective lands.
Which is why I brought up the issue! Did you READ the last paragraph of my original post? The point of the post was not to rip Egwene, it was to point out that the Tower's contribution will be something new and unexpected, because as far as things are trending now, there was no point.

And we know, as clearly as we do with Elayne, that Egwene will be on Rand's side. Sure, she may flay him for ignoring the Black Tower and letting his underlings do stupid things,
You have an absolutely fascinating definition of "on his side."

but that can only be to the good.
How? What has he done that was wrong? Given all that Taim has accomplished for him, giving him his head is an obvious move. The readers think it was dumb, because of dramatic irony, and Egwene thinks its dumb because it's male channelers, which creep her out everytime she witnesses Rand channeling in her PoVs. Neither of which is a valid reason for Rand to antagonize his arguably most valuable non-ta'veren follower by micromanaging.

That will satisfy Logain and his huge faction of good Asha'man,
Screw him. Logain's an egotistical d-bag, who falsely claimed to be the Dragon Reborn to seek glory and power, got thousands of people killed and currently goes around publicly detracting and undermining Rand. Harine & Shalon were at the Cleansing. Their version of events would be contradicted by Logain telling them his fantasy that the Creator intervened, and can only serve to make Rand or his preferred Sea Folk associates look bad to the MotS for claiming he did it. And Logain has no reason for his position. He has been the witness and beneficiary to one feat of channeling presumed impossible, like every other channeler in the world, he knows of the use of the Choedan Kal on the day the taint was removed, and he knows that the taint ended up on the Power through human action, whereas the Creator's intervention is completely unprecedented in human experience. He could easily find out the truth by questioning Rand's entourage at Algarin's manor, but he prefers to ignore the truth to maintain his self-image as a near-equal to Rand. Instead, he questions the sisters to confirm Min's viewing of his glory. The man's a total ass, and I'd almost rather Rand killed him than Taim.

it will lead to the removal of Taim and the exposure of the DF Asha'man, etc. Given that Aes Sedai are seemingly supposed to help in destroying the Black Tower of Taim according to Elaida's prophesy,
Only Elaida was supposed to be deceived by that line! The prophecy went "The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire and sisters will walk its grounds." They ARE and have been walking its grounds for months now. If sisters do play a role in that, it will be the party sent by Elaida to destroy the Black Tower, and/or (heh heh) the Reds' delegation, neither of which has anything to do with Egwene's rule.

Egwene may in fact end up being the pivotal to exposing and excising the traitors in Rand's organization. Proving again that the White Tower's reunification was necessary.
Nope. Even if she is, it would depend on the nature of her part. It might just as easily turn out to be something personal, rather than something she needed the Tower for.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? - 07/02/2010 04:41:58 AM 1800 Views
I think the breaking of the tower was.... - 07/02/2010 07:55:48 AM 764 Views
Nice idea, that does seem to make sense in hindsight. - 07/02/2010 06:18:35 PM 559 Views
Yes, but that isn't the point. - 08/02/2010 04:14:32 AM 649 Views
Re: Yes, but that isn't the point. - 08/02/2010 04:40:52 AM 620 Views
YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? - 08/02/2010 04:55:46 AM 549 Views
Re: YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? - 08/02/2010 02:43:48 PM 655 Views
Re: YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? - 10/02/2010 09:49:59 PM 617 Views
Re: the wise ones. - 13/02/2010 10:21:55 AM 459 Views
They're not the biggest clan... - 13/02/2010 02:20:38 PM 562 Views
Thank you - 15/02/2010 01:24:05 PM 666 Views
No problem. *NM* - 15/02/2010 09:05:11 PM 231 Views
Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? - 07/02/2010 06:14:31 PM 658 Views
Re: The point was that Rand needed the division. - 07/02/2010 08:34:10 PM 609 Views
small disagreement - 07/02/2010 08:42:07 PM 549 Views
Re: small disagreement - 08/02/2010 04:37:03 AM 488 Views
Egwene and Siuan have noted that there are plenty of the new Novices - 15/02/2010 04:22:35 PM 555 Views
For that matter, what is the point of Andor? - 08/02/2010 06:08:32 AM 609 Views
Re: For that matter, what is the point of Andor? - 08/02/2010 03:38:54 PM 555 Views
Especially true if - 08/02/2010 07:16:04 PM 526 Views
But Tar Valon is critical too. - 08/02/2010 07:41:43 PM 570 Views
Really? - 10/02/2010 05:30:02 AM 489 Views
Three women in a boat... - 10/02/2010 09:12:41 PM 532 Views
Nothing is ever given as a location for that boat that I recall. - 11/02/2010 11:54:39 PM 477 Views
So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. - 10/02/2010 10:13:56 PM 610 Views
Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. - 12/02/2010 12:43:19 AM 632 Views
In this, I agree with Fionwe. - 13/02/2010 10:31:07 AM 501 Views
Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. - 15/02/2010 02:23:57 PM 641 Views
Some good points, but I still disagree. - 15/02/2010 06:30:50 PM 531 Views
- 15/02/2010 10:08:48 PM 620 Views
my thoughts - 09/02/2010 12:58:30 PM 719 Views
Belief and order give strength. - 10/02/2010 11:20:01 PM 551 Views
To pad the last few books in order to make Egwene the Amyrlin. - 17/02/2010 05:25:22 PM 507 Views
I can't say I agree with the use of the term "padding". - 17/02/2010 06:07:25 PM 476 Views
Re: I can't say I agree with the use of the term "padding". - 22/02/2010 11:05:44 PM 537 Views
To unite the Tower under competent leadership, of course. - 23/02/2010 04:55:02 AM 979 Views
Does a main plotline HAVE to help defeat the DO? - 26/02/2010 04:11:30 PM 661 Views

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