I'm pretty sure the strengths lie somewhere here. The difference between Aes Sedai strengths seems to be very small because they've had a narrow spectrum of selective strength for hundreds of years. Suddenly women like Nynaeve and Egwene are popping up. It's like having a whole population of people who average 5' to 6'. Suddenly a few 7' and 8' people are showing up, and naturally that will screw up the scale hugely.
In general I think you are correct (although we know the weakest AS is about 1/3 the strength of the strongest, not really a small gap)...
IMO run of the mill AS in general are rather weak in the grand scheme... but your range IMO is far too narrow. There is no possible way that Daigian can be stronger than nearly 40% of all channelers and be as weak as you place her. Personally I think AS span a range from about 15-45 (Daigian-Moiraine) with the vast majority in the 20-30 range. Note 4 women could hold the shield on Rand (which means Logains shielders were very weak indeed) ... linked they'd be about 80 (-10% for linking) assuming some were on the high side of average AS, but as soon as the 4th left the other 3 didn't stand a chance (they dropped down to about a 50 at that point).
We've only seen about 30 or so AS with Beonin level strength or higher (which seems about the level an AS needs to be in order to be a leader in the Tower), along with maybe as many more from the ranks of the other Channeling groups and only a handful between Moiraine and Lanfear, and that includes:
2 Damane (Alivia and probably Sera)
1 Kin (Garenia)
2 WF (Metaara and Talaan maybe a few more that I'm missing)
5 WO (Aviendha, Therava, Tamela, Viendra and Sommeryn)
11 AS (Sharina, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Bode, Nicola, Cadsuane, Meilyn, Kerene, Elle, Jancy)
and the 5 Forsaken women (not including Cyndane since she's kind of a repeat really)
If Moiraine is a 45, Cadsuane a 60 Egwene an 80 and Nynaeve a 95 it seems to fit that AS in general fall in the lower rungs of strength (with a few women that are outliers, and thus carry a lot of influence in the Tower. Egwene + R and L would be a 150 linked and as we saw with Alivia probably couldn't take down a FS Male due to skill differential, and may not have enough strength to cut him off from the source without some effort.
It would take 6 average Sisters linked to match Rand, but make even 1 of them weaker than a 20 and they have problems. 13 Daigians could probably overwhelm him by close to a factor of 2x.
Yes you can, but then it starts to conflict every comparative quote in the series. It's all well and good to place an Aes Sedai at 50, but then you have to wonder how...
I don't think the vast majority of AS are close to a 50, only the very strongest Sisters are close to that level. See my comments above.
- Rand can smother Verin and Alanna so easily. They are by no means weak and equal to 100 if you believe they have strengths of 50. It also doesn't explain why Verin thinks it will take 13 to take Rand down.
I'd place Verin and Alanna at about 30 each, making them no match at all for Rand!
Liandrin thinks that three black ajah can smother Moghedien. If the AS are sitting at 50, then Moghedien is no match for two.
Liandrin is overestimating them IMO, if she's a 30 and the other 2 are 25 each they wouldn't even likely match her in raw strength ... much less skill as Liandrin soon finds out!
ANY of the Forsaken managed to resist circles at the Cleansing if channelers were averaging 50 PLUS mixed circles with their advantages.
The Strongest sister out in the field was Nesune and I doubt she's much beyond a 35, linked with Daigian a 15 and Beldein who's what a 20 plus a boy who has just learned to channel? ... together they may equal 1 Forsaken! Flinn is considerably stronger, but he was linked with 2 middling sisters (20-25 each) which would map to equaling Demandred. Verin at 30, Kumira at 20 and Shalon at 40 plus the angreal seems about right to match Graendal.
Egwene exceeds Amys and Melaine in strength.
If Amys is a 45 and Melaine a 35 that makes Egwene an 80, I don't find that hard to believe, we know Amys is at least close to Moiraine and Melaine "stronger than most AS" so probably at least a Myrelle or possibly Sheriam level.
A false Dragon has ever managed to resist six women, and we know that they do frequently.
I still chuckle that you quantify once about every 1000 years as "frequently" But see my point above about Rand's shielding. If a Strong FD is a 90-100 it would take at least 6 level 20 women to have a chance against him.
Logain needs six women to hold him and can come close to escaping with five. Even if women struggle to hold men more, this would imply that the combined strength of 300 could not hold an already shielded man, which is implausible.
I've always thought this quote was out of place since Rand could not break a shield of 4 women at DW ... but if the 6 weakest women in camp (level 15s) were holding Logain's shield they may struggle and if you take that down to 5 he could feasibly have broken free.
I could probably think of others. To me, RJ has clearly made the highest strength channelers several times stronger than some of the weaker ones, to the point that whole groups of them are needed to overwhelm stronger channelers.
I agree with this overall, I think we just disagree on where the weaker "highest strength channelers" fall on the scale... I can live with that.
It means that three Aes Sedai in a ring can match anyone, which I think it contradicted by the books. Most high level channelers can resist up to six before they run into trouble - we have numerous examples from the history of the Tower vs False Dragons, and Kiruna is sure that six can't best Rand. It doesn't even matter if you need to be ten times stronger than someone to shield them - a circle of six woman with 40-50 strength will be at least twice as strong as Rand, and probably more, and can beat him down and then shield him. Evidently six women are close to Rand's own strength, which is why False Dragons sometimes win those encounters.
3 Moiraine levels linked would equal a 120 ... perhaps enough to overwhelm in pure strength, but IMO you need at least a 50% strength advantage to easily cut someone off from the Source while they are already holding it. Thus Egwene smothered Sheriam without a thought, but Nynaeve couldn't do the same to Elayne.
But it would still take 3 Egwene's to completely dominate Rand level, as only then would they by 2x his strength.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 10/01/2010 at 02:06:49 AM
Is Rand logical when he estimates female danger?
07/01/2010 03:34:05 PM
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Basically you have to be ready for anything!
07/01/2010 03:45:31 PM
- 780 Views
Yep. Send Daigian in Linked with 12 of her buddies (one of whom is holding an angreal) & hes screwed
07/01/2010 05:19:03 PM
- 996 Views
Miscommunication seems to be a major theme of the series *NM*
07/01/2010 07:17:16 PM
- 394 Views
As well as missed opportunities.
07/01/2010 09:27:56 PM
- 707 Views
yes, the Amyrlin story line could have been wrapped up much earlier!
07/01/2010 09:55:30 PM
- 812 Views
For a major theme, it sure is surprising
08/01/2010 04:10:22 AM
- 694 Views
really? miscommunication seems to be woven into just about every sentence
08/01/2010 04:53:48 AM
- 633 Views
Re: really? miscommunication seems to be woven into just about every sentence
08/01/2010 04:10:04 PM
- 724 Views
Thanks for pointing to that Taim incident... its another proof...
07/01/2010 04:15:33 PM
- 774 Views
I always like to think that Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha Linked can match Rand.
07/01/2010 05:26:35 PM
- 703 Views
07/01/2010 08:51:15 PM
- 851 Views
HA!
07/01/2010 09:01:14 PM
- 796 Views
Re: HA!
08/01/2010 11:37:06 AM
- 824 Views
Re: HA!
08/01/2010 04:21:01 PM
- 629 Views
Hmm...
09/01/2010 03:02:04 PM
- 615 Views
Re: Hmm...
09/01/2010 04:47:05 PM
- 737 Views
Re: Hmm...
09/01/2010 05:06:06 PM
- 729 Views
as we've discussed in the past, it's very loose
09/01/2010 06:20:26 PM
- 828 Views
Re: as we've discussed in the past, it's very loose
09/01/2010 07:32:57 PM
- 2956 Views
Re: as we've discussed in the past, it's very loose
09/01/2010 09:05:01 PM
- 813 Views
There are issues, of course!
09/01/2010 06:17:08 PM
- 933 Views
Re: There are issues, of course!
09/01/2010 07:18:03 PM
- 887 Views
I think I fall in between you guys
09/01/2010 08:46:58 PM
- 818 Views
Getting tired of this merry go round, but here we go again...
07/01/2010 09:08:59 PM
- 727 Views
For the last time!
07/01/2010 09:50:16 PM
- 898 Views
it's about EFFECTIVE strength Fionwe (jk)
07/01/2010 10:05:48 PM
- 591 Views
I don't think they were that bad back then, but still...
07/01/2010 10:11:46 PM
- 707 Views
Re: I don't think they were that bad back then, but still...
08/01/2010 11:38:48 AM
- 624 Views
I'd actually go with Elayne in matters of battle.
08/01/2010 02:47:34 PM
- 734 Views
I'm tempted to go with Taim too, but...
08/01/2010 04:25:52 PM
- 680 Views
If Elayne had wanted Taim dead, he and his minions would have been dead
08/01/2010 05:41:29 PM
- 729 Views
The reverse would be true too, though...
08/01/2010 05:50:02 PM
- 640 Views
But she just heard Taim say to basically stand down
08/01/2010 06:05:43 PM
- 692 Views
But...
08/01/2010 08:53:11 PM
- 891 Views
Ah but Elayne also knew they knew Rand wouldn't allow it
08/01/2010 10:40:45 PM
- 741 Views
I think he is illogical towards all danger, regardless of gender.
07/01/2010 06:39:37 PM
- 643 Views
Do fat kids run marathons? No. And no Rand isn't logical when he estimates female danger. *NM*
07/01/2010 06:44:08 PM
- 456 Views