I think I fall in between you guys - Edit 1
Before modification by darius_sedai at 10/01/2010 02:06:49 AM
I'm pretty sure the strengths lie somewhere here. The difference between Aes Sedai strengths seems to be very small because they've had a narrow spectrum of selective strength for hundreds of years. Suddenly women like Nynaeve and Egwene are popping up. It's like having a whole population of people who average 5' to 6'. Suddenly a few 7' and 8' people are showing up, and naturally that will screw up the scale hugely.
In general I think you are correct (although we know the weakest AS is about 1/3 the strength of the strongest, not really a small gap)...
IMO run of the mill AS in general are rather weak in the grand scheme... but your range IMO is far too narrow. There is no possible way that Daigian can be stronger than nearly 40% of all channelers and be as weak as you place her. Personally I think AS span a range from about 15-45 (Daigian-Moiraine) with the vast majority in the 20-30 range. Note 4 women could hold the shield on Rand (which means Logains shielders were very weak indeed) ... linked they'd be about 80 (-10% for linking) assuming some were on the high side of average AS, but as soon as the 4th left the other 3 didn't stand a chance (they dropped down to about a 50 at that point).
We've only seen about 30 or so AS with Beonin level strength or higher (which seems about the level an AS needs to be in order to be a leader in the Tower), along with maybe as many more from the ranks of the other Channeling groups and only a handful between Moiraine and Lanfear, and that includes:
2 Damane (Alivia and probably Sera)
1 Kin (Garenia)
2 WF (Metaara and Talaan maybe a few more that I'm missing)
4 WO (Aviendha, Tamela, Viendra and Sommeryn)
11 AS (Sharina, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Bode, Nicola, Cadsuane, Meilyn, Kerene, Elle, Jancy)
and the 5 Forsaken women (not including Cyndane since she's kind of a repeat really)
If Moiraine is a 45, Cadsuane a 60 Egwene an 80 and Nynaeve a 95 it seems to fit that AS in general fall in the lower rungs of strength (with a few women that are outliers, and thus carry a lot of influence in the Tower. Egwene + R and L would be a 150 linked and as we saw with Alivia probably couldn't take down a FS Male due to skill differential, and may not have enough strength to cut him off from the source without some effort.
It would take 6 average Sisters linked to match Rand, but make even 1 of them weaker than a 20 and they have problems. 13 Daigians could probably overwhelm him by close to a factor of 2x.
Yes you can, but then it starts to conflict every comparative quote in the series. It's all well and good to place an Aes Sedai at 50, but then you have to wonder how...
I don't think the vast majority of AS are close to a 50, only the very strongest Sisters are close to that level. See my comments above.
- Rand can smother Verin and Alanna so easily. They are by no means weak and equal to 100 if you believe they have strengths of 50. It also doesn't explain why Verin thinks it will take 13 to take Rand down.
I'd place Verin and Alanna at about 30 each, making them no match at all for Rand!
Liandrin thinks that three black ajah can smother Moghedien. If the AS are sitting at 50, then Moghedien is no match for two.
Liandrin is overestimating them IMO, if she's a 30 and the other 2 are 25 each they wouldn't even likely match her in raw strength ... much less skill as Liandrin soon finds out!
ANY of the Forsaken managed to resist circles at the Cleansing if channelers were averaging 50 PLUS mixed circles with their advantages.
The Strongest sister out in the field was Nesune and I doubt she's much beyond a 35, linked with Daigian a 15 and Beldein who's what a 20 plus a boy who has just learned to channel? ... together they may equal 1 Forsaken! Flinn is considerably stronger, but he was linked with 2 middling sisters (20-25 each) which would map to equaling Demandred. Verin at 30, Kumira at 20 and Shalon at 40 plus the angreal seems about right to match Graendal.
Egwene exceeds Amys and Melaine in strength.
If Amys is a 45 and Melaine a 35 that makes Egwene an 80, I don't find that hard to believe, we know Amys is at least close to Moiraine and Melaine "stronger than most AS" so probably at least a Myrelle or possibly Sheriam level.
A false Dragon has ever managed to resist six women, and we know that they do frequently.
I still chuckle that you quantify once about every 1000 years as "frequently" But see my point above about Rand's shielding. If a Strong FD is a 90-100 it would take at least 6 level 20 women to have a chance against him.
Logain needs six women to hold him and can come close to escaping with five. Even if women struggle to hold men more, this would imply that the combined strength of 300 could not hold an already shielded man, which is implausible.
I've always thought this quote was out of place since Rand could not break a shield of 4 women at DW ... but if the 6 weakest women in camp (level 15s) were holding Logain's shield they may struggle and if you take that down to 5 he could feasibly have broken free.
I could probably think of others. To me, RJ has clearly made the highest strength channelers several times stronger than some of the weaker ones, to the point that whole groups of them are needed to overwhelm stronger channelers.
I agree with this overall, I think we just disagree on where the weaker "highest strength channelers" fall on the scale... I can live with that.
It means that three Aes Sedai in a ring can match anyone, which I think it contradicted by the books. Most high level channelers can resist up to six before they run into trouble - we have numerous examples from the history of the Tower vs False Dragons, and Kiruna is sure that six can't best Rand. It doesn't even matter if you need to be ten times stronger than someone to shield them - a circle of six woman with 40-50 strength will be at least twice as strong as Rand, and probably more, and can beat him down and then shield him. Evidently six women are close to Rand's own strength, which is why False Dragons sometimes win those encounters.
3 Moiraine levels linked would equal a 120 ... perhaps enough to overwhelm in pure strength, but IMO you need at least a 50% strength advantage to easily cut someone off from the Source while they are already holding it. Thus Egwene smothered Sheriam without a thought, but Nynaeve couldn't do the same to Elayne.
But it would still take 3 Egwene's to completely dominate Rand level, as only then would they by 2x his strength.