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Re: Why not? Sidious Send a noteboard - 03/10/2009 05:07:51 PM
The concept is called empathy. You should try it sometime...

Thanks for the offer, but I'll keep my empathy for real people, or at least for the main characters who are more than one line in a conversation between Suroth and Semirhage.

And no, I did not cry. But I did get where RJ was coming from. You don't have to see blood and gore to appreciate the horror of a thousand deaths unless you have an emotional range and imagination that can be fit in a teaspoon.

Or you just need to get a grip and stop being dominated by emotions and focus on the main character and his quest to save the whole Wheel of Time.

Name a few? Cairhein? That was Asmodean. Andor? That was Rahvin. Arad Doman and Tarabon? That's Ishy, Moghedien and Graendal. The Tower? That's Mesaana. The Aiel? Asmodean again.
Whatever chaos Rand bings is being exacerbated by the Forsaken. It is called "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule".

But the Tower isn't Mesaana - the Black ajah pushed ahead with that long before she arrived, and she's contributed little. Moghedien did nothing in Tarabon except send her people off on missions which results in almost nothing. What has Graendal done in Arad Doman that is so terrible? Elayne clearly has no problem with Andor now that she's the queen - it's not like she's weeping about how Rahvin ruined the place. I mean, the day after Be'lal died, Tear was normal, which shows what a bang up job he did.

So, let's get this right. It is not in facts that we are dealing here but emotions. You don't really care about the Forsaken's competence, you care about the emotional response their actions generate. How can you claim to be rational about this then?

Because fantasy is about the main characters and their journey through the series, and how they are affected. It's not about distant tragedies with no emotional connection to the reader.

It'd be fair if you said that the Forsaken's atrocities leave you cold. I think differently, but that's a matter of perspective. But when we discuss competence, it is a matter of facts and numbers, which you must agree are on the Forsaken's side.

Almost none of the Forsaken's domains are in chaos or anarchy... Be'lal in Tear, Sammael in Ilian, Rahvin in Andor... all are almost exactly the same. Semirhage is a success, and I would say Mesaana too only because of the contained zoo she lives in which makes it so easy to manipulate. How did Aran'gar really affect Salidar? How did Osan'gar affect the Ash'aman... they are all two star efforts at best.

Causing serious trouble is possible when they are not kept busy infighting. You did see that I mentioned that right?

I saw.

So the Forsaken are incompetent because the Light will eventually overcome the hurdles and unify to fight them? You do realize that but for those hurdles, the Shadow could have been wiped out by now?

So you think the Forsaken are competent. Not even the Forsaken think they're competent.

I'm still a little confused. Is there a rule that someone should be blamed for not killing the major protagonists? Because that is certainly not the goal of the Forsaken! They have been, till recently, told nothing about killing these people.

You're right... the antagonists clearly have no unsaid destiny regarding the protagonists. You make as if they move along two separate plot threads and don't even interact.

Again! I cannot believe that you missed the significance of Moridin playing Sha'ra. Spreadin chaos is the main job, not killing the Dragon. For god's sake, the prologue to tGS has a conversation that proves exactly that!

The goal is to break the Wheel of Time dammit. Moridin also wants the ta'veren dead, and said in WH that it would be fine if the Forsaken killed Rand if he tried to cleanse the taint. I don't deny that spreading chaos is a goal... but it's a distant second IMO to killing Rand. That's also in Prologue according to Graendal!

The goal is to eventually either turn or kill the Dragon, but for now, with the Wheel protecting him overtime, that is not an option at all.

Well that's all I'm saying.

And Moghedien is your gold standard of Forsaken competence?

Yeah how dare I mention the Forsaken as examples of Forsaken who are going after the girls. At least send me a list citing which of the thirteen you approve of so I can use those instead.

As for making them damane, that is not killing them. And that they did not end up damane did not change the fact that this incident drove yet another wedge between two factions of the Light.

I know it's not killing them... it's disposing of them. Demandred is happy just severing Rand - they merely have to dispose of the protagonists.
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This message last edited by Sidious on 03/10/2009 at 05:09:07 PM
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Are women really bad generals? Sidious - 01/10/2009 07:05:03 PM 1515 Views
I think that all we can conclude from this... Rand al'Thor - 01/10/2009 07:39:49 PM 810 Views
No. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/10/2009 07:41:35 PM 948 Views
Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... Shannow - 01/10/2009 08:40:47 PM 1038 Views
Lol... too true Sidious - 01/10/2009 09:32:29 PM 930 Views
And you guys whine about the lameness of RJ's villains? fionwe1987 - 01/10/2009 09:41:54 PM 946 Views
I still haven't seen proof of Demandred or Ishamael's "brilliance". RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/10/2009 09:56:41 PM 772 Views
Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice Rurouni_Kenshin - 02/10/2009 04:25:37 AM 745 Views
Re: Ishamael's destroyed Civilization twice RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 03:48:13 PM 673 Views
but you are difficult to please Sidious - 02/10/2009 05:10:13 AM 724 Views
Re: but you are difficult to please RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 03:46:56 PM 671 Views
Re: but you are difficult to please Sidious - 03/10/2009 06:17:21 AM 678 Views
But they are lame... they've done minimal damage to the Light Sidious - 02/10/2009 05:06:05 AM 675 Views
You can't have it both ways.... fionwe1987 - 02/10/2009 06:47:21 AM 758 Views
Why not? Sidious - 02/10/2009 08:45:35 AM 719 Views
Re: Why not? fionwe1987 - 02/10/2009 04:27:00 PM 621 Views
Re: Why not? Sidious - 03/10/2009 06:34:16 AM 740 Views
Re: Why not? fionwe1987 - 03/10/2009 07:40:16 AM 682 Views
Re: Why not? Sidious - 03/10/2009 05:07:51 PM 656 Views
Yeah Etzel - 01/10/2009 09:57:01 PM 710 Views
Re: Yeah nossy - 01/10/2009 10:40:28 PM 743 Views
I thought the same in the past... Etzel - 02/10/2009 07:01:18 AM 722 Views
Gah! Hate! nossy - 02/10/2009 04:11:49 PM 732 Views
Ah, come on... Etzel - 02/10/2009 04:41:37 PM 705 Views
No no, I was just being pouty that I haven't read the new stuff yet. nossy - 02/10/2009 05:01:15 PM 717 Views
Yeah, I can understand that! Etzel - 03/10/2009 12:23:25 PM 570 Views
Unless... Fanatic-Templar - 01/10/2009 10:49:55 PM 775 Views
Re: Unless... Sidious - 02/10/2009 05:07:14 AM 801 Views
Well, it's entirely hypothetical, Fanatic-Templar - 02/10/2009 06:31:32 AM 684 Views
Re: Or RJ just loves stacking ridiculously unfavourable odds against the male Forsaken generals... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/10/2009 09:51:30 PM 793 Views
What about Mat and Ituralde? Rurouni_Kenshin - 02/10/2009 04:28:49 AM 749 Views
Re: What about Mat and Ituralde? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 03:52:24 PM 689 Views
Good points! Also, these "generals" haven't actually fielded any troops beetnemesis - 01/10/2009 11:23:40 PM 677 Views
Further... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 12:14:44 AM 707 Views
But as individuals they are meant to be deadly too Sidious - 02/10/2009 05:09:21 AM 668 Views
Just one point ^_^ RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/10/2009 12:51:50 AM 695 Views
Well, yeah. They're knowledgable and deadly in person. Generalship doesn't come into it. beetnemesis - 04/10/2009 12:09:50 AM 653 Views
nope nossy - 01/10/2009 08:06:57 PM 800 Views
Re: nope Sidious - 01/10/2009 09:32:38 PM 895 Views
Tylee Kirgan, Birgitte, and one other, Egeanin NaClH2O - 01/10/2009 09:47:00 PM 1102 Views
Birgitte's not a soldier though. Darth_Katie - 01/10/2009 10:10:50 PM 696 Views
She says she's not, but so does Mat. nossy - 01/10/2009 10:34:04 PM 613 Views
Mat's not a soldier, either - he's a general RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/10/2009 10:51:29 PM 755 Views
Right, which was what we were discussing at first. nossy - 02/10/2009 04:13:43 PM 697 Views
Yeah, I'm supporting your point about them both being generals RugbyPlayingAshaman - 02/10/2009 06:10:31 PM 707 Views
true, but she does pretty good NaClH2O - 02/10/2009 01:06:03 AM 750 Views
Oooh I forgot she's in charge of Elayne's lady guards. Darth_Katie - 02/10/2009 03:22:57 AM 629 Views
Egeanin or Leilwin nossy - 01/10/2009 10:35:53 PM 827 Views
A ship captain is like a calvary general NaClH2O - 02/10/2009 01:24:37 AM 684 Views
Right. Cannoli - 02/10/2009 01:36:59 AM 685 Views
Well said. (And its short and to the point.) RabidWombat - 02/10/2009 03:54:23 AM 801 Views
Birgitte is too cautious to be better than an adequate tactician. RabidWombat - 02/10/2009 04:22:45 AM 732 Views
Isn't this more of an outgrowth or her respective specialty? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 07/10/2009 08:40:46 PM 655 Views
My opinion Cannoli - 02/10/2009 01:30:12 AM 1099 Views
That's a poor excuse rAndy aL - 02/10/2009 11:59:42 AM 637 Views
That's a poor argument Cannoli - 02/10/2009 04:02:53 PM 859 Views
Re: That's a poor argument rAndy aL - 03/10/2009 04:26:55 AM 718 Views
I disagree nossy - 02/10/2009 04:26:28 PM 736 Views
Re: I disagree Cannoli - 02/10/2009 08:31:29 PM 934 Views
Oh, puh-lease. nossy - 02/10/2009 09:09:30 PM 882 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. Cannoli - 03/10/2009 04:52:37 PM 701 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. NaClH2O - 03/10/2009 08:26:27 PM 593 Views
Re: Oh, puh-lease. nossy - 05/10/2009 05:08:27 PM 3156 Views
I always know I've out-argued an idiot when they fall back on the tired old "RJ wanted it that way" Cannoli - 06/10/2009 04:42:11 AM 740 Views
And I can tell you're through when you've gotten to three+ insults per paragraph. nossy - 06/10/2009 05:46:24 PM 850 Views
um nossy - 08/10/2009 07:36:52 PM 984 Views
Monday morning quarterbacking at its worst RabidWombat - 04/10/2009 07:28:36 AM 790 Views
Men and football. nossy - 05/10/2009 04:49:35 PM 713 Views
She didn't kill anyone! Why SHOULD she feel guilty? She gave necessary orders. Cannoli - 06/10/2009 03:33:15 AM 813 Views
It's the only thing men are allowed to do in Randland CupofDice - 02/10/2009 03:09:19 AM 724 Views
My thoughts LordPerrin - 02/10/2009 03:12:46 PM 657 Views
.... Fantasy - 04/10/2009 03:38:44 AM 644 Views
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