Active Users:344 Time:11/04/2025 02:01:35 AM
Re: How that CAN be interpreted however, is... DomA Send a noteboard - 02/05/2014 09:39:06 PM

Full disclosure: I'm a good friend of Terez, so we've discussed the matters a bit, but she didn't discuss with me in very specific details the strength matters much more than she did tell you.

A few things. That she told me, she hasn't seen the bell curve graphs, the formulas and all. Harriet is probably still using those files and lists. T. could't give them to us anyway if she had gotten them, as they could turn out in the Encyclopedia for all we know.

However, RJ apparently often "mused" to himself in notes, and "reasoned aloud", so his initial distribution of channelers and their strengths among Aiel had that and some expanded calculations, and relations to the bell curve. Apparently it confirms all he said about % and such. The WO simply train a greater range of the bell curve than the AS would, probably closer to what the AOLers did. Thus this would confirm its function was the distribution of all abilities, from Lanfear down to a level so low we've never seen anyone from it.

The only evidence that Moiraine could be at the bottom level of RJ's list (but it's more probably "very near" the bottom as her ability isn't inexistant), is that

1) She has the lowest numbers found so far
2) She's below a level under which a woman should not sense the source clearly enough to be trained to embrace it. But she's trained, so all she needs is an angreal to be able to channel as efficiently as before.

The bell curve helped determine strength distribution and rarity and turn it into numbers of characters, for every group. Stats differed between groups and between men and women as several factors varied.

To reconstruct the system, there's a bit of speculation involved.

It appears that RJ initially ranked the sisters from level 1 (Moiraine) to level 21 (unknown sister, but perhaps someone seen in books 2-3-4.. or who didn't appear on screen before the system changed. I suspect it could be one of the Namelles).

Later on, it appears he might have cheated - he could as he had not specified yet who was at the bottom and his references to novices and numbers were still quite vague - and decided to lower the WT standards to have sisters as weak as Daigian (to make a point they were hardly useless, Daigian was weak but one of the finest White logicians?). The lowest level to be allowed to try for Accepted speculatively got lowered, and the same for the level to test for the shawl. It seems that he added 12 levels below the former weakest sister and put Daigian there. Most established women didn't change strength, but someone formerly "off the charts" like Morgase likely dropped a great deal.

This very possibly happened when he prepared to write TSR and determined the size of the Aiel clans and how many WO they had per sept, then how many could be channelers. The statistics showed him they had much greater probabilities of having strong women alive, and in some numbers, so he had to bring into play some "Forsaken class" women. Furthermore, he had decided Moiraine/Egwene would follow Rand to the Waste and meet the WO. That wasn't his first plan, apparently. Rand went alone and brought the Aiel back to take the Stone.

Anyway...that may well be when he decided he had better cover the whole bell curve and add the 12 +x levels above Moiraine to cover all the way up to Lanfear, as he now had to make comparisons between and keep track of women stronger than Moiraine other than Nyaneve + Egwene/Elayne, whose strengths he could keep straight in his head. He likely added all the levels below 21 that he needed to cover the curve all the way to someone having a null ability.

The +x system he must have introduced for the intuitively obvious reasons: the strength of sisters already appeared in a ton of notes, if he renumbered things, the risks of missing one # in a file he used and using a wrong number as he wrote were too high. He had to keep those numbers as they were, and his system to calculate behaviors between AS was all conceived, so again he had to keep the ranges of strengths covered by each levels the same as they were (by all internal evidence, the range covered by one step is probably constant, ie: RJ judged the logical behavior of every sister by simply counting how many steps separated them. x steps = deference, y steps = obedience etc. Cadsuane is x steps from Merise, and x steps from Nynaeve etc. He used it that way even for +( characters like Elayne and Cadsuane vs. non plus x ones, so it looks somewhat doubtful the range covered by a step increases the stronger women get, otherwise he simply had to logically reflect that growth curve in the numbering of his levels to still be able to make comparisons at a glance. That he didn't do that but used linear numbering like the first system suggests, but I guess doesn't prove yet, it's linear.

So on the one hand RJ added (+ levels to maintain his existing sisters at the levels they appeared in the notes. He also introduced a second number for each woman, also linear (+1 per step), to rank everyone from Lanfear 1+12) all the way to a speculative bottom level (70? 100? It's impossible to be sure. Moiraine's the lowest known).

The "old style" number let him compare anyone to an Aes Sedai, the new numbering let him know where each woman stood globally.

The new numbers corresponded in turn to (greatly rounded up) life expectancy ranges. Those LER# corresponded in turn to an aging factor (%) and the start of slowing. This all determined mathematically the physical appearance of sisters, WO, Forsaken women after RJ compensated those numbers for the Binder effect, for the harshness of the Waste or life at sea, etc.

The comparisons between aging factors might reveal if the scale is linear or follows some curve or is somewhat exponential, but maybe it won't. From what I've heard there's really not a great deal of difference between the life expectancy of people on the 12 (+ levels or even between them vs. Elaida level sisters, while there is about 3 times that gap between Elaida and Daigian. I don't know what you math-heads can make out of just that, though...

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One Power strength: New information from RJ's notes - 01/05/2014 11:39:32 PM 4255 Views
interesting. i wonder what else they'll dig up - 01/05/2014 11:46:19 PM 1628 Views
College of Charleston library - 02/05/2014 12:21:01 AM 1712 Views
Still... really cool, thanks! *NM* - 03/05/2014 06:35:05 PM 870 Views
Mesaana - 02/05/2014 12:26:19 AM 1697 Views
Re: Mesaana - 02/05/2014 12:37:52 AM 1735 Views
Danelle - 02/05/2014 12:59:51 AM 1632 Views
Interesting... - 02/05/2014 05:13:44 PM 1694 Views
Re: Mesaana - 26/05/2015 10:21:33 PM 1245 Views
Bringing it all together... - 02/05/2014 10:34:12 AM 1623 Views
Can't accept that, sorry... - 02/05/2014 03:17:05 PM 1669 Views
How that CAN be interpreted however, is... - 02/05/2014 03:38:38 PM 1355 Views
Sorry, no... - 02/05/2014 06:00:56 PM 1390 Views
Here are some key flaws, unfortunately... - 02/05/2014 07:56:53 PM 1275 Views
Sorry, you're mistaking the Tower for the world... - 02/05/2014 09:50:23 PM 1322 Views
Re: Sorry, you're mistaking the Tower for the world... - 02/05/2014 09:59:45 PM 1329 Views
Not totally accurate - 17/05/2015 11:15:30 PM 1228 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 05/06/2015 03:23:08 PM 1255 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 05/06/2015 08:22:13 PM 1221 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 05/06/2015 09:16:51 PM 1395 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 06/06/2015 03:48:34 PM 1214 Views
Re: How that CAN be interpreted however, is... - 02/05/2014 09:39:06 PM 1532 Views
Thanks DomA. The problem is simple.. - 02/05/2014 09:57:37 PM 1389 Views
Ahh, the Rand with Egwene and Elayne scene... - 02/05/2014 10:19:05 PM 1567 Views
Re: Thanks DomA. The problem is simple.. - 02/05/2014 10:45:12 PM 1470 Views
About that... - 02/05/2014 10:48:18 PM 1311 Views
Re: About that... - 02/05/2014 11:12:01 PM 1451 Views
Re: About that... - 17/05/2015 03:07:22 AM 1217 Views
Re: Thanks DomA. The problem is simple.. - 05/06/2015 03:16:50 PM 1320 Views
Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 02/05/2014 10:24:02 PM 1363 Views
Re: Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 02/05/2014 11:09:16 PM 1251 Views
Re: Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 02/05/2014 11:36:55 PM 1418 Views
More on Aiel learners - 03/05/2014 12:46:19 AM 1401 Views
Interesting. - 03/05/2014 02:32:23 AM 1308 Views
Re: Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 03/05/2014 01:02:23 AM 1382 Views
Oh... - 03/05/2014 02:35:08 AM 1333 Views
Re: Oh... - 03/05/2014 04:29:34 AM 1889 Views
Can you clarify something here Dom/Terez? - 07/05/2014 01:31:54 AM 1380 Views
Re: Can you clarify something here Dom/Terez? - 07/05/2014 02:59:42 AM 1536 Views
Thanks Dom, I'm genuinely puzzled, though... - 07/05/2014 09:04:08 AM 1429 Views
Some things to consider... - 07/05/2014 11:22:46 PM 1274 Views
Re: Some things to consider... - 17/05/2015 03:32:22 AM 1184 Views
Vegeta! What does the scouter say about his power level? - 02/05/2014 04:38:59 PM 1286 Views
mmm, Vegeta *NM* - 03/05/2014 08:32:36 AM 862 Views
Sorilea and comments on the general structure of the notes - 02/05/2014 09:20:26 PM 1603 Views
Is there any reference whatsoever about strength multiples? - 02/05/2014 09:34:50 PM 1469 Views
I will let you know if I see something like that... - 02/05/2014 10:20:46 PM 1333 Views
Thanks. Because it will solve the entire riddle - 03/05/2014 11:04:31 PM 1440 Views
Re: Thanks. Because it will solve the entire riddle - 04/05/2014 06:16:52 AM 1468 Views
Interesting... - 04/05/2014 08:14:19 AM 1493 Views
Re: Interesting... - 05/05/2014 04:08:41 PM 1405 Views
LOL! - 02/05/2014 09:46:11 PM 1485 Views
More info on Sorilea - 02/05/2014 10:04:50 PM 1614 Views
This is great! - 02/05/2014 10:23:31 PM 1527 Views
In the original he might have kissed her. - 03/05/2014 12:49:53 AM 1387 Views
Having read some of his other books with sex, I've always been curious about this. - 05/05/2014 02:53:00 PM 1581 Views
Easy answer - 10/05/2014 02:49:53 PM 1327 Views
Can't argue with that! - 18/05/2014 12:31:01 AM 1455 Views
Therava/Galina - 10/05/2014 02:58:09 PM 1925 Views
Came across one of the oldest strength lists I'd seen... - 02/05/2014 10:46:29 PM 1414 Views
#10 seems weird. An Aes Sedai who never reached her full potential? - 03/05/2014 06:43:41 PM 1526 Views
Not weird. There is a good reason. - 03/05/2014 09:30:40 PM 1560 Views
One question... - 03/05/2014 09:44:35 PM 1500 Views
yes to both *NM* - 03/05/2014 10:49:29 PM 932 Views
Suian? - 04/05/2014 04:50:32 PM 1460 Views
Does not meet the criteria I gave. *NM* - 10/05/2014 05:23:27 AM 803 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 11/05/2014 05:49:31 AM 1388 Views
Not someone who was severed, burned out, or anything like that. *NM* - 11/05/2014 01:27:28 PM 846 Views
Did she join the Aes Sedai especially early or late in life? - 11/05/2014 01:47:27 PM 1398 Views
no... - 11/05/2014 04:27:07 PM 1269 Views
Wild guess... - 11/05/2014 06:51:27 PM 1320 Views
One of Terez's criteria - 11/05/2014 09:24:57 PM 1288 Views
Hmmm... - 12/05/2014 08:51:33 AM 1265 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 13/05/2014 06:14:12 PM 1444 Views
Even I don't know what Dom is talking about. *NM* - 13/05/2014 06:24:23 PM 813 Views
Does it have anything to do with the Sharans? - 13/05/2014 10:35:45 PM 1308 Views
no - 14/05/2014 07:52:27 AM 1311 Views
Wasn't there a Sister who was a Queen or sister to a King or something like that... - 13/05/2014 09:26:02 PM 1375 Views
Kiruna... - 13/05/2014 10:34:32 PM 1299 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 13/05/2014 10:38:05 PM 1226 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 14/05/2014 04:09:42 AM 1301 Views
Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 14/05/2014 04:37:20 AM 1375 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 14/05/2014 07:55:20 AM 1347 Views
- 14/05/2014 08:14:05 AM 1265 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 15/05/2014 03:59:02 AM 1417 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 16/05/2014 04:06:02 PM 1281 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 17/05/2014 03:01:25 AM 1386 Views
Perhaps Romanda? - 05/06/2015 04:22:31 PM 1270 Views
Re: Perhaps Romanda? - 05/06/2015 08:39:31 PM 1084 Views
Re: Wild guess... - 12/05/2014 05:33:53 AM 1382 Views
Alternatively, someone who went to live in Far Madding... - 12/05/2014 12:08:07 PM 1363 Views
That was one of my guesses... - 12/05/2014 04:57:56 PM 1159 Views
Redirect to my initial "Not weird" post. *NM* - 12/05/2014 06:59:02 PM 825 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 20/05/2014 02:23:13 AM 1271 Views
Lots of no *NM* - 20/05/2014 02:30:25 AM 830 Views
You're killing me. - 20/05/2014 02:55:21 AM 1289 Views
I won't just tell you :p But... - 20/05/2014 10:31:27 AM 1386 Views
Wild speculation - 20/05/2014 01:39:52 PM 1291 Views
Could it be Verin who always used her angreal? - 20/05/2014 02:07:30 PM 1269 Views
Hmmm - 20/05/2014 03:37:57 PM 1275 Views
Well, I'm not saying she did it to appear weaker... - 20/05/2014 03:48:10 PM 1193 Views
The buffer - 20/05/2014 04:10:58 PM 1305 Views
I doubt using an angreal means you don't progress in natural strength - 20/05/2014 06:02:00 PM 1461 Views
Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 20/05/2014 11:53:11 PM 1332 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 21/05/2014 01:55:15 AM 1263 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 22/05/2014 02:33:30 AM 1333 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 22/05/2014 05:04:00 AM 1385 Views
So... - 22/05/2014 05:12:48 AM 1248 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 22/05/2014 11:55:38 AM 1255 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 24/05/2014 02:07:01 AM 1300 Views
I didn't say that - 24/05/2014 11:24:30 PM 1351 Views
Re: I didn't say that - 25/05/2014 02:32:46 PM 1302 Views
did she deliberately keep her growth slow? A small theory too - 17/05/2015 11:54:28 PM 1231 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 05:49:42 PM 1289 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 06:05:28 PM 1167 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 06:23:28 PM 1300 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 08:37:20 PM 1122 Views
I think this will be in the Encyclopedia, so... - 10/06/2015 03:06:42 PM 1253 Views
you are such a tease *NM* - 10/06/2015 09:05:10 PM 647 Views
Why doesn't someone... - 24/05/2014 11:25:51 PM 1470 Views
Favourite part about this post... - 12/05/2014 07:12:51 AM 1489 Views
With regard to #10- does it involve the Oath Rod, in some way? - 15/05/2014 02:53:45 PM 1296 Views
no *NM* - 15/05/2014 07:16:16 PM 791 Views
Oh, I know! It's the Sea Folk Aes Sedai! - 17/05/2014 01:32:04 PM 1370 Views
Re: Oh, I know! It's the Sea Folk Aes Sedai! - 17/05/2014 08:45:59 PM 1405 Views
An Aes Sedai who was sent away from the Tower? - 17/05/2014 10:01:44 PM 1409 Views
Again, no reason to think this Aes Sedai did not channel often. *NM* - 18/05/2014 04:32:06 AM 832 Views
Did the Aes Sedai live in relative seclusion, did she have a Warder, and did that Warder die? *NM* - 20/05/2014 06:03:04 PM 942 Views
Too specific - 20/05/2014 11:51:25 PM 1348 Views
Re: Too specific - 21/05/2014 05:32:32 AM 1249 Views
You think THAT isn't specific? *NM* - 22/05/2014 02:41:53 AM 840 Views
It's a fine mess that no one can work out - 09/06/2014 09:20:56 AM 1490 Views
Re: It's a fine mess that no one can work out - 04/06/2015 08:48:20 PM 1362 Views

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