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Re: How that CAN be interpreted however, is... DomA Send a noteboard - 02/05/2014 09:39:06 PM

Full disclosure: I'm a good friend of Terez, so we've discussed the matters a bit, but she didn't discuss with me in very specific details the strength matters much more than she did tell you.

A few things. That she told me, she hasn't seen the bell curve graphs, the formulas and all. Harriet is probably still using those files and lists. T. could't give them to us anyway if she had gotten them, as they could turn out in the Encyclopedia for all we know.

However, RJ apparently often "mused" to himself in notes, and "reasoned aloud", so his initial distribution of channelers and their strengths among Aiel had that and some expanded calculations, and relations to the bell curve. Apparently it confirms all he said about % and such. The WO simply train a greater range of the bell curve than the AS would, probably closer to what the AOLers did. Thus this would confirm its function was the distribution of all abilities, from Lanfear down to a level so low we've never seen anyone from it.

The only evidence that Moiraine could be at the bottom level of RJ's list (but it's more probably "very near" the bottom as her ability isn't inexistant), is that

1) She has the lowest numbers found so far
2) She's below a level under which a woman should not sense the source clearly enough to be trained to embrace it. But she's trained, so all she needs is an angreal to be able to channel as efficiently as before.

The bell curve helped determine strength distribution and rarity and turn it into numbers of characters, for every group. Stats differed between groups and between men and women as several factors varied.

To reconstruct the system, there's a bit of speculation involved.

It appears that RJ initially ranked the sisters from level 1 (Moiraine) to level 21 (unknown sister, but perhaps someone seen in books 2-3-4.. or who didn't appear on screen before the system changed. I suspect it could be one of the Namelles).

Later on, it appears he might have cheated - he could as he had not specified yet who was at the bottom and his references to novices and numbers were still quite vague - and decided to lower the WT standards to have sisters as weak as Daigian (to make a point they were hardly useless, Daigian was weak but one of the finest White logicians?). The lowest level to be allowed to try for Accepted speculatively got lowered, and the same for the level to test for the shawl. It seems that he added 12 levels below the former weakest sister and put Daigian there. Most established women didn't change strength, but someone formerly "off the charts" like Morgase likely dropped a great deal.

This very possibly happened when he prepared to write TSR and determined the size of the Aiel clans and how many WO they had per sept, then how many could be channelers. The statistics showed him they had much greater probabilities of having strong women alive, and in some numbers, so he had to bring into play some "Forsaken class" women. Furthermore, he had decided Moiraine/Egwene would follow Rand to the Waste and meet the WO. That wasn't his first plan, apparently. Rand went alone and brought the Aiel back to take the Stone.

Anyway...that may well be when he decided he had better cover the whole bell curve and add the 12 +x levels above Moiraine to cover all the way up to Lanfear, as he now had to make comparisons between and keep track of women stronger than Moiraine other than Nyaneve + Egwene/Elayne, whose strengths he could keep straight in his head. He likely added all the levels below 21 that he needed to cover the curve all the way to someone having a null ability.

The +x system he must have introduced for the intuitively obvious reasons: the strength of sisters already appeared in a ton of notes, if he renumbered things, the risks of missing one # in a file he used and using a wrong number as he wrote were too high. He had to keep those numbers as they were, and his system to calculate behaviors between AS was all conceived, so again he had to keep the ranges of strengths covered by each levels the same as they were (by all internal evidence, the range covered by one step is probably constant, ie: RJ judged the logical behavior of every sister by simply counting how many steps separated them. x steps = deference, y steps = obedience etc. Cadsuane is x steps from Merise, and x steps from Nynaeve etc. He used it that way even for +( characters like Elayne and Cadsuane vs. non plus x ones, so it looks somewhat doubtful the range covered by a step increases the stronger women get, otherwise he simply had to logically reflect that growth curve in the numbering of his levels to still be able to make comparisons at a glance. That he didn't do that but used linear numbering like the first system suggests, but I guess doesn't prove yet, it's linear.

So on the one hand RJ added (+ levels to maintain his existing sisters at the levels they appeared in the notes. He also introduced a second number for each woman, also linear (+1 per step), to rank everyone from Lanfear 1+12) all the way to a speculative bottom level (70? 100? It's impossible to be sure. Moiraine's the lowest known).

The "old style" number let him compare anyone to an Aes Sedai, the new numbering let him know where each woman stood globally.

The new numbers corresponded in turn to (greatly rounded up) life expectancy ranges. Those LER# corresponded in turn to an aging factor (%) and the start of slowing. This all determined mathematically the physical appearance of sisters, WO, Forsaken women after RJ compensated those numbers for the Binder effect, for the harshness of the Waste or life at sea, etc.

The comparisons between aging factors might reveal if the scale is linear or follows some curve or is somewhat exponential, but maybe it won't. From what I've heard there's really not a great deal of difference between the life expectancy of people on the 12 (+ levels or even between them vs. Elaida level sisters, while there is about 3 times that gap between Elaida and Daigian. I don't know what you math-heads can make out of just that, though...

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One Power strength: New information from RJ's notes - 01/05/2014 11:39:32 PM 4428 Views
interesting. i wonder what else they'll dig up - 01/05/2014 11:46:19 PM 1805 Views
College of Charleston library - 02/05/2014 12:21:01 AM 1892 Views
Still... really cool, thanks! *NM* - 03/05/2014 06:35:05 PM 989 Views
Mesaana - 02/05/2014 12:26:19 AM 1870 Views
Re: Mesaana - 02/05/2014 12:37:52 AM 1927 Views
Danelle - 02/05/2014 12:59:51 AM 1794 Views
Interesting... - 02/05/2014 05:13:44 PM 1855 Views
Re: Mesaana - 26/05/2015 10:21:33 PM 1422 Views
Bringing it all together... - 02/05/2014 10:34:12 AM 1782 Views
Can't accept that, sorry... - 02/05/2014 03:17:05 PM 1864 Views
How that CAN be interpreted however, is... - 02/05/2014 03:38:38 PM 1524 Views
Sorry, no... - 02/05/2014 06:00:56 PM 1558 Views
Here are some key flaws, unfortunately... - 02/05/2014 07:56:53 PM 1433 Views
Sorry, you're mistaking the Tower for the world... - 02/05/2014 09:50:23 PM 1495 Views
Re: Sorry, you're mistaking the Tower for the world... - 02/05/2014 09:59:45 PM 1482 Views
Not totally accurate - 17/05/2015 11:15:30 PM 1394 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 05/06/2015 03:23:08 PM 1567 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 05/06/2015 08:22:13 PM 1397 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 05/06/2015 09:16:51 PM 1704 Views
Re: Not totally accurate - 06/06/2015 03:48:34 PM 1385 Views
Re: How that CAN be interpreted however, is... - 02/05/2014 09:39:06 PM 1694 Views
Thanks DomA. The problem is simple.. - 02/05/2014 09:57:37 PM 1571 Views
Ahh, the Rand with Egwene and Elayne scene... - 02/05/2014 10:19:05 PM 1782 Views
Re: Thanks DomA. The problem is simple.. - 02/05/2014 10:45:12 PM 1640 Views
About that... - 02/05/2014 10:48:18 PM 1473 Views
Re: About that... - 02/05/2014 11:12:01 PM 1620 Views
Re: About that... - 17/05/2015 03:07:22 AM 1377 Views
Re: Thanks DomA. The problem is simple.. - 05/06/2015 03:16:50 PM 1623 Views
Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 02/05/2014 10:24:02 PM 1510 Views
Re: Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 02/05/2014 11:09:16 PM 1416 Views
Re: Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 02/05/2014 11:36:55 PM 1581 Views
More on Aiel learners - 03/05/2014 12:46:19 AM 1571 Views
Interesting. - 03/05/2014 02:32:23 AM 1472 Views
Re: Thanks a ton for that Dom... - 03/05/2014 01:02:23 AM 1543 Views
Oh... - 03/05/2014 02:35:08 AM 1501 Views
Re: Oh... - 03/05/2014 04:29:34 AM 2054 Views
Can you clarify something here Dom/Terez? - 07/05/2014 01:31:54 AM 1557 Views
Re: Can you clarify something here Dom/Terez? - 07/05/2014 02:59:42 AM 1711 Views
Thanks Dom, I'm genuinely puzzled, though... - 07/05/2014 09:04:08 AM 1603 Views
Some things to consider... - 07/05/2014 11:22:46 PM 1432 Views
Re: Some things to consider... - 17/05/2015 03:32:22 AM 1373 Views
Vegeta! What does the scouter say about his power level? - 02/05/2014 04:38:59 PM 1464 Views
mmm, Vegeta *NM* - 03/05/2014 08:32:36 AM 976 Views
Sorilea and comments on the general structure of the notes - 02/05/2014 09:20:26 PM 1778 Views
Is there any reference whatsoever about strength multiples? - 02/05/2014 09:34:50 PM 1627 Views
I will let you know if I see something like that... - 02/05/2014 10:20:46 PM 1499 Views
Thanks. Because it will solve the entire riddle - 03/05/2014 11:04:31 PM 1602 Views
Re: Thanks. Because it will solve the entire riddle - 04/05/2014 06:16:52 AM 1625 Views
Interesting... - 04/05/2014 08:14:19 AM 1658 Views
Re: Interesting... - 05/05/2014 04:08:41 PM 1564 Views
LOL! - 02/05/2014 09:46:11 PM 1641 Views
More info on Sorilea - 02/05/2014 10:04:50 PM 1776 Views
This is great! - 02/05/2014 10:23:31 PM 1691 Views
In the original he might have kissed her. - 03/05/2014 12:49:53 AM 1554 Views
Having read some of his other books with sex, I've always been curious about this. - 05/05/2014 02:53:00 PM 1770 Views
Easy answer - 10/05/2014 02:49:53 PM 1504 Views
Can't argue with that! - 18/05/2014 12:31:01 AM 1641 Views
Therava/Galina - 10/05/2014 02:58:09 PM 2102 Views
Came across one of the oldest strength lists I'd seen... - 02/05/2014 10:46:29 PM 1574 Views
#10 seems weird. An Aes Sedai who never reached her full potential? - 03/05/2014 06:43:41 PM 1724 Views
Not weird. There is a good reason. - 03/05/2014 09:30:40 PM 1715 Views
One question... - 03/05/2014 09:44:35 PM 1658 Views
yes to both *NM* - 03/05/2014 10:49:29 PM 1047 Views
Suian? - 04/05/2014 04:50:32 PM 1626 Views
Does not meet the criteria I gave. *NM* - 10/05/2014 05:23:27 AM 926 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 11/05/2014 05:49:31 AM 1540 Views
Not someone who was severed, burned out, or anything like that. *NM* - 11/05/2014 01:27:28 PM 959 Views
Did she join the Aes Sedai especially early or late in life? - 11/05/2014 01:47:27 PM 1555 Views
no... - 11/05/2014 04:27:07 PM 1426 Views
Wild guess... - 11/05/2014 06:51:27 PM 1479 Views
One of Terez's criteria - 11/05/2014 09:24:57 PM 1439 Views
Hmmm... - 12/05/2014 08:51:33 AM 1429 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 13/05/2014 06:14:12 PM 1612 Views
Even I don't know what Dom is talking about. *NM* - 13/05/2014 06:24:23 PM 933 Views
Does it have anything to do with the Sharans? - 13/05/2014 10:35:45 PM 1491 Views
no - 14/05/2014 07:52:27 AM 1505 Views
Wasn't there a Sister who was a Queen or sister to a King or something like that... - 13/05/2014 09:26:02 PM 1538 Views
Kiruna... - 13/05/2014 10:34:32 PM 1456 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 13/05/2014 10:38:05 PM 1385 Views
Re: Hmmm... - 14/05/2014 04:09:42 AM 1463 Views
Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 14/05/2014 04:37:20 AM 1532 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 14/05/2014 07:55:20 AM 1507 Views
- 14/05/2014 08:14:05 AM 1436 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 15/05/2014 03:59:02 AM 1571 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 16/05/2014 04:06:02 PM 1435 Views
Re: Oh. Is it about using as much if the OP as you can handle? - 17/05/2014 03:01:25 AM 1548 Views
Perhaps Romanda? - 05/06/2015 04:22:31 PM 1585 Views
Re: Perhaps Romanda? - 05/06/2015 08:39:31 PM 1254 Views
Re: Wild guess... - 12/05/2014 05:33:53 AM 1539 Views
Alternatively, someone who went to live in Far Madding... - 12/05/2014 12:08:07 PM 1521 Views
That was one of my guesses... - 12/05/2014 04:57:56 PM 1312 Views
Redirect to my initial "Not weird" post. *NM* - 12/05/2014 06:59:02 PM 937 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 20/05/2014 02:23:13 AM 1442 Views
Lots of no *NM* - 20/05/2014 02:30:25 AM 946 Views
You're killing me. - 20/05/2014 02:55:21 AM 1447 Views
I won't just tell you :p But... - 20/05/2014 10:31:27 AM 1545 Views
Wild speculation - 20/05/2014 01:39:52 PM 1450 Views
Could it be Verin who always used her angreal? - 20/05/2014 02:07:30 PM 1434 Views
Hmmm - 20/05/2014 03:37:57 PM 1449 Views
Well, I'm not saying she did it to appear weaker... - 20/05/2014 03:48:10 PM 1354 Views
The buffer - 20/05/2014 04:10:58 PM 1467 Views
I doubt using an angreal means you don't progress in natural strength - 20/05/2014 06:02:00 PM 1634 Views
Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 20/05/2014 11:53:11 PM 1499 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 21/05/2014 01:55:15 AM 1430 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 22/05/2014 02:33:30 AM 1491 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 22/05/2014 05:04:00 AM 1562 Views
So... - 22/05/2014 05:12:48 AM 1410 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 22/05/2014 11:55:38 AM 1410 Views
Re: Both potential and actual strength can be sensed. - 24/05/2014 02:07:01 AM 1457 Views
I didn't say that - 24/05/2014 11:24:30 PM 1504 Views
Re: I didn't say that - 25/05/2014 02:32:46 PM 1475 Views
did she deliberately keep her growth slow? A small theory too - 17/05/2015 11:54:28 PM 1394 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 05:49:42 PM 1617 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 06:05:28 PM 1327 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 06:23:28 PM 1600 Views
Re: Not weird. There is a good reason. - 04/06/2015 08:37:20 PM 1292 Views
I think this will be in the Encyclopedia, so... - 10/06/2015 03:06:42 PM 1438 Views
you are such a tease *NM* - 10/06/2015 09:05:10 PM 771 Views
Why doesn't someone... - 24/05/2014 11:25:51 PM 1641 Views
Favourite part about this post... - 12/05/2014 07:12:51 AM 1648 Views
With regard to #10- does it involve the Oath Rod, in some way? - 15/05/2014 02:53:45 PM 1466 Views
no *NM* - 15/05/2014 07:16:16 PM 905 Views
Oh, I know! It's the Sea Folk Aes Sedai! - 17/05/2014 01:32:04 PM 1528 Views
Re: Oh, I know! It's the Sea Folk Aes Sedai! - 17/05/2014 08:45:59 PM 1567 Views
An Aes Sedai who was sent away from the Tower? - 17/05/2014 10:01:44 PM 1570 Views
Again, no reason to think this Aes Sedai did not channel often. *NM* - 18/05/2014 04:32:06 AM 942 Views
Did the Aes Sedai live in relative seclusion, did she have a Warder, and did that Warder die? *NM* - 20/05/2014 06:03:04 PM 1059 Views
Too specific - 20/05/2014 11:51:25 PM 1506 Views
Re: Too specific - 21/05/2014 05:32:32 AM 1417 Views
You think THAT isn't specific? *NM* - 22/05/2014 02:41:53 AM 955 Views
It's a fine mess that no one can work out - 09/06/2014 09:20:56 AM 1648 Views
Re: It's a fine mess that no one can work out - 04/06/2015 08:48:20 PM 1669 Views

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