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Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? DomA Send a noteboard - 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM
I can't remember, but I thought Avendesora was the only chora to survive and that they gave a cutting to the Cairhienen. I suppose even if this was the case that it wouldn't count as reproduction, just a cloning, but it does suggest one way for some constructs to make copies (or have copies made).


Avendesora is either OT for, or a later deformation of (can't be sure as we don't know the OT rules for forming words) of the OT "aviende chora" (Aviendha's name seems to be related to it too, incidentally), ie: chora tree(s). The Aiel brought potted cuttings with them from Paraan Disan (we see the Da'shain with them in TSR) - the one surviving cutting must have grown into "Avendesora". We know from the BWB that chora trees were constructs, and we know they're sterile and don't produce seeds. They're multiplied by making cuttings and making those grow roots. That's how the sappling given to Cairhien was grown.

I am also curious about Someshta... He says he remembers Wolfbrothers when he meets Perrin, but this must mean he is even older than the AOL (or at least was already very old by its end)


That's most unlikely. The BWB, and RJ, told us Nyms were Constructs from the AOL. The oddities are probably to put on this being the first book and RJ didn't have everything aligned perfectly about the back story elements.


He also remarks that it's been TWO thousand years since he's been under Avendesora. Was this a mistake on RJ's part, or did he have something to do with Rhuidean after being set up to guard to the Eye?


My guess is that Someshta is referring to another "avendesora", i.e: a chora tree that survived until the Trolloc Wars before the Nym lost it to the Blight.


Finally, you recently suggested that Nakomi and the Green Man may have been ancient gods predating the Wheel cosmology. Did you mean that the Nym were ancient gods, or that they were created to celebrate that tradition?


The later. My idea derives both from RJ's notion that facts and legends become mixed together and from a remark of LTT who conceive of the Creator as a Gardener in KOD. So one of my ideas was that the Nym were made for practical purposes, but their appearance was modelled in honor of an ancient deity associated with the male principle of the Creator, in the days before the OP was discovered and the Aes Sedai or their forerunners developped a new cosmology with the Creator's energy being the sum of a male and female half, the world being a Pattern etc. The theory was that over time after the Breaking Nym were forgotten and Someshta became the subject of legends, and confused with The Green Man. and yeah, the idea was that Nakomi may have been the female counterpart of the Gardener in the Great Serpent cosmology (but has no relation to Nym or constructs, she's forgotten by all but perhaps scholars or some WO... and probably a theologian like Elan Morin).

That's not my only idea for the origins of Nakomi though. Long before chapter 1 confirmed the name was ancient, I speculated she may have been:

a) an important Da'shain Aiel Madhi from the days of the WoS/Breaking. I'm convinced the Da'shain had an equivalent of what became the Wise Ones, and I'm pretty convinced Madhi (Seeker, as in Seeker in the Dream) was their original title (because we know the meaning of Madhi is a synonym of Wisdom in some areas). So Nakomi may have been a Jenn Aiel WO involved in the compact at Rhuidean. Some WO like Bair may have seen her when they went through the Columns, WO may or not see her depending if their ancestor interacted or not with her. It could mean the apparation of Nakomi to a WO on the eve of TG may have been part of the Columns's original programming.

b) Nakomi may be even more ancient and either be the first Dreamer among the Dai'shain Aiel or even be the founder of the Way of the Leaf.

c) She's even more ancient than this and this used to be a name for the female deity.

Either way it doesn't mean someone didn't borrow the name on purpose, of course. When Bair reveals who that ancient Nakomi was, we'll have a better idea.

Nakomi is the name of a Mother Goddess in Amerindian mythology (associated to the moon). She's the one who taught shamans to make "Dreamcatchers". Of course she would hardly be the only character whose name is taken from a Goddess and it doesn't prove in any way that's a deity's name in WOT (it could be perfectly mundane, like Tuon whose second name is Kore, aka Perséphone, the daughter of the mother Goddess Demeter, and is now name after the roman Goddess Fortuna). She could be any of the above, and a fourth distinct possibility is that this was a new alias of Cyndane, who's used the name of a RW deity before (Selene, a moon goddess... like Nakomi is). It's a distinct possibility what happened in Rhuidean is a scheme of Moridin or Cyndane, but have motives to use Aviendha for a revenge (Moridin promised if the Bowl of Winds was used and the DO's plans disrupted, those responsible would "live to pay". Elayne, the Kinswomen and seemingly the WF have paid, Aviendha and Nynaeve have so far escaped Moridin's revenge... for now, and that we know...).

This message last edited by DomA on 06/10/2012 at 10:09:08 PM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2888 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1462 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1107 Views
Re: I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1250 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1401 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1245 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1127 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1167 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1147 Views
Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1265 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 939 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1147 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1172 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1254 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1338 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1148 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 587 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1361 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1124 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1305 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1061 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1147 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1182 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1322 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1129 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1164 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1177 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1145 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1224 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1098 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1109 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1171 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1002 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1146 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1374 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1064 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1143 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1082 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1122 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1066 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1184 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1016 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1220 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1148 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1156 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1067 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1038 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1026 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1068 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 931 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 987 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1100 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 956 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1114 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 933 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1052 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1123 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1096 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1125 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1296 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1085 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1005 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 853 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1120 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1045 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1073 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1092 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1058 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1062 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1013 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1049 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 927 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1093 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 992 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1034 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1027 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1035 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1006 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1066 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1068 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1479 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1040 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1051 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1027 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1082 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 467 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1003 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1044 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1146 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1127 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1005 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 770 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1197 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1042 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1036 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1152 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1079 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1088 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1038 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1066 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1115 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 940 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 915 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1011 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1075 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1060 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 684 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1026 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1173 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1004 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1137 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1060 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1029 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1198 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 957 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1454 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1009 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1158 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1116 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1005 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1269 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1068 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1183 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1063 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 949 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1090 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1172 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1103 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1193 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1127 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1147 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 576 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1212 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1128 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1118 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1097 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1068 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1133 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM 1110 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? - 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM 1117 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? - 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM 1291 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1055 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 933 Views

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