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Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this Sidious Send a noteboard - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM
Your example fits right in with an ongoing theme in WOT about misconception.

Well one can always bring about the theme of misconception if one doesn't like the evidence placed before them. The truth is there is no misconception - Logain is right. Rand is stronger.

Logain, of all the men out there, shouldn't use this comparison as he had already encountered Androl at this point and fought for him to be raised to Dedicated, or he soon would, based on his remarkable ability. We also know from Naeff (who Logain also knows) that a weaker Channeler with a strong affinity for a flow can match a stronger one, so Logain is even more off base with his assessment as Rand could just as easily be Gifted in Spirit and that would explain a greater effect with a single weave, or he could be both more Gifted and more Talented. No matter how you look at Logain's statement, it's stupid of him, despite being true as his rationale is not well developed since he took only one of the possible reasons Rands gateways were larger into account when there are quiet obviously many other variables that could account for it.


It's not stupid of Logain. You yourself say that he's been exposed to a lot of male channelers. He knows that their strength is well reflected in gateway size. You can't throw out a general trend just because one channeler has an unusual Talent with a weave.

And you are ignoring a bevy of quotes/scenes to the contrary:

1. Siuan specifically states her Healing talent is the same as before. No less despite significantly less Strength
2. Egwene and Elayne are both poor Healers, by your reckoning they should be able to overcome this with more power. We've seen on a number of occasions that this is not the case
3. Androl can make a Gateway as large as Rand
4. Asmodean talks of how poor Semirhage is with Weather
5. Moghedien complaint about her lack of a stronger Talent for Compullsion
6. Naeff matching Nynaeve in Tear with flows of Air
7. Flinn notes he has trouble with gateways, indicating he should be able to make one large based on his strength


I said originally that Talent plays the greatest part in everything, but that it is rare. It is still true that strong channelers can get by with everything. Semirhage can get by with the weather even if she struggles, whereas weak channelers cannot even do that if they have no Talent. Strength obviously has a part to play which is why Moiraine and other channelers sometimes link or use angreal to perform great feats of Healing.

There are dozens more throughout the text ... Point being, you must FIRST possess enough Talent to be effective with the skill, only then will strength allow you to compensate and perhaps create as powerful an effect as a Channeler with a stronger Talent but less raw strength. And in single element weaves flow affinity will also play a part in the end effect or a weave.


If you have zero Talent you can still get by. Rand can Heal even though he isn't very good. We know for a fact that making cuendillar is a Talent, though Egwene directly says that strength in Earth is the key. Therefore a strong channeler will be able to make cuendillar even without the Talent whereas a weak one won't. Give a weak Aes Sedai an angreal and suddenly she can Travel. There are lots of examples. I'm not claiming that strength gives you Talent. I'm saying that someone with no Talent can have a weak ability in everything if they are strong in the Power.

All Logain's quote tells us is that Rand is both stronger and has at least a similar ability with gateways to Logain. By your statement Logain should also think Androl is stronger than he is!


Logain is perfectly correct. You are using an exception to blind you to the rule. Out of all the Asha'man, Androl may be the only one with this gift. Logain has less than 1% chance of being wrong if he looks at a gateway size and assume's the man's strength. In Androl's case he would be wrong, and in Berowin's case we would be wrong about her ability to shield someone. You will still be right about the vast majority of channelers you measure up from a distance.
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This message last edited by Sidious on 03/10/2012 at 07:06:15 AM
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Problems with gateways - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2889 Views
It's been discussed before... - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1462 Views
I would agree with this - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1107 Views
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Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1245 Views
There is - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1127 Views
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Here's a neat idea - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1265 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 939 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1148 Views
Absurd question... - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1173 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1254 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1338 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1148 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 587 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1361 Views
Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1124 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1305 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 1061 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1147 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1182 Views
No I think they're more about strength - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1322 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1129 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1165 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1178 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1145 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1224 Views
She did Heal him - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1098 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1109 Views
Re-read some stuff - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1171 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 1002 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1146 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1374 Views
But his thought processes are sound - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 1064 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1143 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 1082 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1123 Views
Ummm... - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 1066 Views
Re: Ummm... - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1185 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 1016 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1220 Views
I wasn't being very clear - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1148 Views
I think he did - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1156 Views
Maybe - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 1067 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 1038 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 1026 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 1068 Views
Exactly... - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 931 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 987 Views
Re: Exactly... - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1100 Views
AND... - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 956 Views
Re: AND... - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1114 Views
Again THANK YOU! - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 933 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 1052 Views
Re: AND... - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1123 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1096 Views
TY!!! - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1126 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1296 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 1085 Views
Are you reading mine? - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 1005 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 853 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1120 Views
THANK YOU!!! - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 1045 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 1073 Views
to the point on the Circle - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1093 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 1058 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 1062 Views
I've been thinking about this - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 1013 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 1049 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 927 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1093 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 993 Views
Highly doubtful... - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 1034 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 1027 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 1036 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 1006 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 1066 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 1068 Views
the text is not inconsistent. - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1479 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 1040 Views
Not so much - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 1051 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 1027 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 1082 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 467 Views
Didn't I just say that? - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 1003 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 1044 Views
There is so much evidence against this - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1146 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1127 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 1005 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 770 Views
He's referring to skimming - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1197 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 1042 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 1036 Views
We are close enough on this point - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1152 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 1079 Views
Please explain Androl then - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1089 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 1038 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 1066 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1115 Views
No it's not - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 940 Views
- 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 915 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 1011 Views
How do you know there's a difference? - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1075 Views
- 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 1060 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 684 Views
Not really - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 1026 Views
I agree with this PoV - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1173 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 1004 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1137 Views
I disagree - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 1060 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 1029 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1198 Views
That has no relevance here - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 957 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1454 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 1009 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1158 Views
I noticed that... - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1116 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 1005 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1269 Views
On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 1068 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1183 Views
True - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 1063 Views
Life skills and OP skills... - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 949 Views
Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1091 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1172 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1103 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1193 Views
The point is the same regardless - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1128 Views
Here's an answer to your original question - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1147 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 576 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1213 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1128 Views
I know - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1118 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1097 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 1068 Views
Trollocs have dreams - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1133 Views
XKCD is on the case! - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 1055 Views
Re: Problems with gateways - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 933 Views

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