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I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM
In Chapter 56 of TOM

He focused. Making gateways came so much easier to him than other weaves did; he'd never understood why. Though he couldn't break even a small rock apart by channeling, he could make a gateway large enough for a wagon to drive through.


I don't know why its controversial. As you showed he directly alludes to the fact that his gateways are much larger than they should be, and with minimal effort. He seems to have the same sort of disproportionate ability that Berowin had with shielding.

Gateways are obviously proportional to strength, but Talent is also there. There's also the fact that gateways are limited to 4x4 paces no matter how strong you are, and that Rand can make several of this size at the same time.


The man is as weak as Morgase, yet can open a gateway on par with Rand? Throws the strength correlation out the window. Obviously the weaker the Talent the more Strength is necessary to make a gateway weave operational, but just as clearly a strong Talent is more important to the ability. Much like Siuan having the same Healing ability after her strength decrease.


The correlation between strength and gateways is well established. The most powerful evidence is that Logain tells Rand not to try and prove that he is stronger than him because he saw that his deathgates were larger. He didn't assume that Rand had a greater Talent, and he didn't waste his time feeling how much saidin Rand was holding. And there are countless other examples of how people's gateways increase as they increase in strength, and how the Forsaken create the largest gateways etc...

Remember, Talent is about illogical and disproportionate ability. It doesn't mean its the rule. Nynaeve herself says that you can hold a stronger woman with a shield unless the gap becomes too large. That doesn't mean that Berowin with her Talent destroys the linear relationship between your strength and who you can shield.

I fully agree that Talent is a component of every weave with every channeler. I think when someone makes a gateway its a question of strength and Talent, but I also believe that pretty much no one has the Talent, so it comes down to strength. Obviously when Talent is present, it trumps everything.

I even think that Healing ability is proportional to strength, but because so many people have the Talent (for instance say 30% of channelers), people only speak about the Talent. When Talent is rare i.e. shielding/gateways then people generally speak about strength. Strong channelers never seem to suffer on any front. Even though Moghedien says she's lame at Compulsion, she still does a good job with it, for instance.


Your example fits right in with an ongoing theme in WOT about misconception. Logain, of all the men out there, shouldn't use this comparison as he had already encountered Androl at this point and fought for him to be raised to Dedicated, or he soon would, based on his remarkable ability. We also know from Naeff (who Logain also knows) that a weaker Channeler with a strong affinity for a flow can match a stronger one, so Logain is even more off base with his assessment as Rand could just as easily be Gifted in Spirit and that would explain a greater effect with a single weave, or he could be both more Gifted and more Talented. No matter how you look at Logain's statement, it's stupid of him, despite being true as his rationale is not well developed since he took only one of the possible reasons Rands gateways were larger into account when there are quiet obviously many other variables that could account for it.

And you are ignoring a bevy of quotes/scenes to the contrary:

1. Siuan specifically states her Healing talent is the same as before. No less despite significantly less Strength
2. Egwene and Elayne are both poor Healers, by your reckoning they should be able to overcome this with more power. We've seen on a number of occasions that this is not the case
3. Androl can make a Gateway as large as Rand
4. Asmodean talks of how poor Semirhage is with Weather
5. Moghedien complaint about her lack of a stronger Talent for Compullsion
6. Naeff matching Nynaeve in Tear with flows of Air
7. Flinn notes he has trouble with gateways, indicating he should be able to make one large based on his strength

There are dozens more throughout the text ... Point being, you must FIRST possess enough Talent to be effective with the skill, only then will strength allow you to compensate and perhaps create as powerful an effect as a Channeler with a stronger Talent but less raw strength. And in single element weaves flow affinity will also play a part in the end effect or a weave.

All Logain's quote tells us is that Rand is both stronger and has at least a similar ability with gateways to Logain. By your statement Logain should also think Androl is stronger than he is!
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 03/10/2012 at 05:29:48 AM
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Problems with gateways Narg - 28/09/2012 05:02:47 PM 2810 Views
Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it. *NM* Tom - 28/09/2012 05:47:13 PM 620 Views
Yeah, I realize that raising physics questions about fantasy books can be absurd... Narg - 28/09/2012 06:03:05 PM 1019 Views
It's been discussed before... DomA - 28/09/2012 06:04:35 PM 1358 Views
I would agree with this A Deathwatch Guard - 28/09/2012 06:35:14 PM 1024 Views
Re: I would agree with this DomA - 28/09/2012 06:56:57 PM 1169 Views
Egwene would likely also know since she puzzled it out as well darius_sedai - 28/09/2012 07:28:22 PM 1130 Views
Especially when opening a gateway into a void like in Skimming (though that is probably T'A'R too) Onarishma - 04/10/2012 03:13:29 PM 1043 Views
Regarding shadowspawn: Narg - 28/09/2012 07:19:38 PM 1305 Views
Isn't there a quote somewhere about this? darius_sedai - 28/09/2012 07:30:40 PM 1159 Views
There is echooff - 28/09/2012 07:52:30 PM 1036 Views
Can Fain pass through a Gateway? Marshall - 28/09/2012 08:11:59 PM 1079 Views
Re: Can Fain pass through a Gateway? DomA - 02/10/2012 02:37:58 AM 1058 Views
Here's a neat idea Marshall - 28/09/2012 08:07:52 PM 1200 Views
Found an interesting quote when I was looking into something else darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 12:57:21 AM 846 Views
I don't think RJ thought about it Sidious - 28/09/2012 07:44:34 PM 1057 Views
Absurd question... fionwe1987 - 28/09/2012 10:44:53 PM 1085 Views
Doesn't it meet your standards? Sidious - 29/09/2012 07:47:12 AM 1159 Views
Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... fionwe1987 - 28/09/2012 11:02:39 PM 1256 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... LoialT - 28/09/2012 11:12:54 PM 1066 Views
Wow, that makes a lot of sense. *NM* Dreadlord - 01/10/2012 07:30:22 PM 548 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... DomA - 01/10/2012 09:03:47 PM 1275 Views
Androl throws a kink in this darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 01:14:16 AM 1050 Views
Re: Androl throws a kink in this DomA - 02/10/2012 02:30:23 AM 1221 Views
He said he can make one large enough for a Wagon to pass through darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 03:23:26 AM 970 Views
Gateway Talent I'd say Sidious - 02/10/2012 08:55:26 AM 1065 Views
I think Androl is proof that gateways are more about a the Talent than strength darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 09:00:26 AM 1101 Views
No I think they're more about strength Sidious - 02/10/2012 09:27:17 AM 1234 Views
I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 04:47:59 PM 1039 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this Sidious - 03/10/2012 07:04:11 AM 1079 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this fionwe1987 - 03/10/2012 07:43:12 AM 1091 Views
Re: I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this Sidious - 03/10/2012 09:59:13 AM 1057 Views
Egwene could not heal Gawyn darius_sedai - 03/10/2012 02:34:08 PM 1133 Views
She did Heal him Sidious - 04/10/2012 08:30:14 AM 1023 Views
and *gasp* maybe breeding. Onarishma - 04/10/2012 05:36:59 PM 1036 Views
Re-read some stuff darius_sedai - 04/10/2012 07:57:50 PM 1087 Views
Re: Re-read some stuff Sidious - 05/10/2012 08:22:06 AM 912 Views
Um she tries out of desperation? darius_sedai - 05/10/2012 03:06:59 PM 1070 Views
Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct darius_sedai - 03/10/2012 02:13:08 PM 1290 Views
But his thought processes are sound Sidious - 04/10/2012 08:20:13 AM 969 Views
It's in Chapter 5 of TGS darius_sedai - 04/10/2012 09:48:49 PM 1063 Views
Re: It's in Chapter 5 of TGS Sidious - 05/10/2012 08:28:13 AM 996 Views
Why was Flinn so late and why bring up his Gateway? darius_sedai - 05/10/2012 04:15:47 PM 1033 Views
Ummm... fionwe1987 - 05/10/2012 08:42:19 PM 988 Views
Re: Ummm... Sidious - 06/10/2012 07:53:10 AM 1096 Views
I don't think RJ changed his mind darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 03:13:44 PM 933 Views
Re: I don't think RJ changed his mind DomA - 07/10/2012 07:28:38 PM 1141 Views
I wasn't being very clear darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 09:45:15 PM 1067 Views
I think he did Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:32:35 PM 1065 Views
Maybe darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 07:48:24 PM 981 Views
still don't think that's proof. It's just practical. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 07:06:15 PM 942 Views
Interesting point you bring up about fighting for control darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 03:44:26 AM 935 Views
She wouldn't have to guess! Onarishma - 09/10/2012 08:43:54 PM 970 Views
Really? Where is that quote? All we've heard is a woman needs to be strong enough darius_sedai - 09/10/2012 11:44:15 PM 970 Views
There is only one book left. It is definitely not LIKELY Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:06:04 PM 1005 Views
I can agree with most of that ... I simply believe that the Talent dictates the amount of strength darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 03:53:21 AM 931 Views
Exactly... fionwe1987 - 10/10/2012 12:35:16 AM 851 Views
Re: Exactly... Sidious - 10/10/2012 10:29:13 AM 909 Views
Re: Exactly... fionwe1987 - 10/10/2012 10:06:08 PM 1016 Views
AND... darius_sedai - 10/10/2012 10:15:14 PM 879 Views
Re: AND... Sidious - 11/10/2012 04:46:31 PM 1030 Views
Again THANK YOU! Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:35:10 PM 855 Views
Re: AND... darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:09:25 AM 976 Views
Re: AND... Sidious - 12/10/2012 08:57:46 AM 1012 Views
I only discount direct statements when we are explicitly shown that they are incorrect darius_sedai - 13/10/2012 06:55:38 PM 958 Views
Because let's be honest, it's rarely a Talent and you both know it Sidious - 11/10/2012 04:44:27 PM 1020 Views
TY!!! Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:38:44 PM 1044 Views
You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:13:06 AM 1204 Views
Re: You are basing this entire post on a fundamentally flawed premise Sidious - 12/10/2012 08:52:02 AM 996 Views
Are you reading mine? darius_sedai - 13/10/2012 07:09:02 PM 924 Views
Apoplexy, that is what is happening on my side of the screen Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:31:30 PM 769 Views
the fact that Egwene is proven incorrect on this any number of times? darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:14:35 AM 1033 Views
THANK YOU!!! Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:26:49 PM 966 Views
Re: Logain may be correct that Rand is stronger, but his reason is not correct Onarishma - 04/10/2012 09:51:08 PM 969 Views
to the point on the Circle darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 09:36:18 PM 1017 Views
Circles don't add the Talents... fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 03:34:47 AM 972 Views
I had forgotten about Brendas! darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 05:15:52 AM 974 Views
I've been thinking about this darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 10:11:22 PM 927 Views
Circles give added precision, remember? fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 11:27:05 PM 969 Views
I get that, but the evidence in front of me from the text is inconsistent to the quote darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 12:11:15 AM 840 Views
Circles of larger numbers give added benefit... fionwe1987 - 08/10/2012 02:00:58 AM 1021 Views
Egwene with a sa'angreal might be like 15x her natural strength, so maybe 9-10x Rand darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 02:59:26 AM 917 Views
Highly doubtful... fionwe1987 - 08/10/2012 01:36:47 PM 957 Views
Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 03:31:20 PM 937 Views
Re: Meh, I don't really care all that much, I just don't think this adds up to the text. Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:57:04 PM 947 Views
That is actually the crux of my issue darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 07:52:52 PM 926 Views
That's why its called exponential. It is NOT linear and that why the gains look ridiculous Onarishma - 11/10/2012 10:00:15 PM 972 Views
Yet that only explains when a circle does certain things darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:18:36 AM 969 Views
the text is not inconsistent. Onarishma - 19/10/2012 08:20:52 PM 1425 Views
I see, it only counts when it supports your point! Why didn't I think of that! darius_sedai - 20/10/2012 03:58:27 AM 1069 Views
RJ specifically said that was ONLY because of Forsaken skill level Onarishma - 11/10/2012 09:02:03 PM 957 Views
Not so much darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:28:44 AM 960 Views
I'm still arguing about this but I think the evidence is that AS holding a shield are not linked. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:59:20 PM 1022 Views
I've given this point some thought too ... It's a dicey subject darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:22:23 AM 889 Views
THAT is proof of the power of LINKING. This is why thirteen Morgases could smash Rand. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 08:41:45 PM 851 Views
It's one example that supports the exponential increase ... not arguing that darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:40:08 AM 963 Views
Re: to the point on the Circle Onarishma - 07/10/2012 06:09:48 PM 942 Views
Healing is a thing of the physical body darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 09:50:37 PM 988 Views
Suian was stilled for hiding these boys. obviously trust was the issue. not healing skill. *NM* Onarishma - 11/10/2012 10:11:50 PM 443 Views
Didn't I just say that? darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:31:22 AM 929 Views
That's what makes a Talent a Talent.... Onarishma - 04/10/2012 05:02:36 PM 965 Views
There is so much evidence against this darius_sedai - 04/10/2012 08:04:45 PM 1058 Views
Androl does not match Rands Gateway size. Onarishma - 05/10/2012 05:59:34 PM 1047 Views
Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. fionwe1987 - 05/10/2012 08:51:58 PM 922 Views
+500 ... Well said sir! *NM* darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 04:52:38 AM 737 Views
He's referring to skimming Sidious - 06/10/2012 07:08:14 AM 1106 Views
I think we aren't far off in interpretation darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 02:48:46 PM 961 Views
Re: I think we aren't far off in interpretation Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:41:12 PM 951 Views
We are close enough on this point darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 08:02:48 PM 1059 Views
Re: Rand states straight out that gateway size is not OP strength dependent. Onarishma - 07/10/2012 06:37:32 PM 996 Views
Please explain Androl then darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 09:48:54 PM 1015 Views
OMG. Androl DOES have a Talent. NO ONE is disputing that. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 10:50:41 PM 964 Views
You have waffled back and forth on Traveling being a Talent darius_sedai - 14/10/2012 03:01:03 AM 982 Views
there is no waffle here. plenty of syrup though.... Onarishma - 18/10/2012 06:53:34 PM 1025 Views
No it's not darius_sedai - 19/10/2012 04:25:25 AM 857 Views
fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 11:35:00 PM 837 Views
i will gladly find you the quote where it it is the right size and ONLY takes more power. Onarishma - 11/10/2012 11:18:15 PM 982 Views
I don't think so... Spirit is used in many weaves (like Healing) as part of the weave darius_sedai - 12/10/2012 04:38:29 AM 971 Views
I was incorrect about the size. but ultimately not incorrect about her evaluation quote within Onarishma - 18/10/2012 03:28:30 PM 1141 Views
How many different times does the text have to say Traveling is a Talent? darius_sedai - 05/10/2012 11:54:19 PM 936 Views
How do you know there's a difference? Sidious - 06/10/2012 06:53:33 AM 1001 Views
darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 03:15:25 PM 985 Views
the text calls a lot of things Talents when they're just lost weaves...Traveling is one of them. *NM* Onarishma - 07/10/2012 07:03:35 PM 653 Views
Not really darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 09:57:56 PM 949 Views
I agree with this PoV Sidious - 06/10/2012 07:19:52 AM 1092 Views
Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 03:36:24 PM 921 Views
I think you use the word Talent too liberally Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:45:39 PM 1049 Views
I disagree darius_sedai - 08/10/2012 08:08:04 PM 979 Views
I sort of agree with Sidious there DomA - 09/10/2012 03:03:54 PM 952 Views
Flinn has difficulty with the weave. Unlike Aviendha he doesn't has a second weave problem darius_sedai - 09/10/2012 06:17:34 PM 922 Views
Re: Yes, Healing Talent is incredibly rare and only implies out of proportion ability... Onarishma - 09/10/2012 02:37:10 PM 1115 Views
That has no relevance here darius_sedai - 09/10/2012 06:29:34 PM 881 Views
Beonin's Gateway v. Egwene's v. Rand's v. Aviendha and Elayne Edit: made a math mistake darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 08:34:56 PM 1368 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 03:49:05 AM 956 Views
This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. And some added points to consider fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 04:09:33 AM 928 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. DomA - 07/10/2012 07:46:51 PM 1071 Views
Cadsuane possessing a strong Talent for Traveling would not be surprising to me darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 10:15:17 PM 995 Views
I noticed that... fionwe1987 - 07/10/2012 11:38:18 PM 1032 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. Sidious - 08/10/2012 05:47:57 PM 927 Views
Re: This debate is restricted by the "largest Gateway possible" issue. DomA - 09/10/2012 05:08:34 PM 1165 Views
On Healing and Yellows... fionwe1987 - 09/10/2012 05:24:11 PM 986 Views
Re: On Healing and Yellows... DomA - 09/10/2012 06:07:20 PM 1101 Views
True darius_sedai - 07/10/2012 10:01:42 PM 973 Views
Life skills and OP skills... fionwe1987 - 02/10/2012 06:40:00 AM 867 Views
Or the reverse could be true darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 08:43:37 AM 1007 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true Sidious - 02/10/2012 09:12:28 AM 1099 Views
And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 04:55:30 PM 1031 Views
Re: And Egwene was training to be Wisdom ... I don't know that any of this is true 100% of the time DomA - 03/10/2012 12:55:01 AM 1097 Views
The point is the same regardless darius_sedai - 03/10/2012 05:14:36 AM 1028 Views
Here's an answer to your original question Sidious - 06/10/2012 07:21:27 AM 1060 Views
*takes a bow* ... thanks for finding that quote! *NM* darius_sedai - 06/10/2012 08:41:49 PM 545 Views
Re: Or the reverse could be true DomA - 02/10/2012 01:02:03 PM 1132 Views
You misunderstand the nature of the Yellow darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 05:06:20 PM 1051 Views
I know DomA - 02/10/2012 07:27:14 PM 1043 Views
Our stance seems to be Nature v. nurture in nature darius_sedai - 02/10/2012 11:21:50 PM 1015 Views
weaves are not magical entities that exist in channelers. They are tools that are invented. Onarishma - 05/10/2012 06:17:31 PM 1015 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... fionwe1987 - 02/10/2012 06:38:11 AM 977 Views
Trollocs have dreams Onarishma - 05/10/2012 06:39:49 PM 1041 Views
Re: Gateways, Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreamspikes... DomA - 06/10/2012 02:05:30 PM 1023 Views
Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? LoialT - 06/10/2012 06:54:27 PM 1021 Views
Re: Was Avendoraldera a separate construct, and what to make of the Green Man cosmology? DomA - 06/10/2012 10:04:41 PM 1206 Views
XKCD is on the case! Tor - 03/10/2012 06:05:54 AM 961 Views
Re: Problems with gateways Onarishma - 04/10/2012 03:10:48 PM 846 Views
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