I disagree with Logain being a credible source on this - Edit 1
Before modification by darius_sedai at 03/10/2012 05:29:48 AM
In Chapter 56 of TOM
He focused. Making gateways came so much easier to him than other weaves did; he'd never understood why. Though he couldn't break even a small rock apart by channeling, he could make a gateway large enough for a wagon to drive through.
He focused. Making gateways came so much easier to him than other weaves did; he'd never understood why. Though he couldn't break even a small rock apart by channeling, he could make a gateway large enough for a wagon to drive through.
I don't know why its controversial. As you showed he directly alludes to the fact that his gateways are much larger than they should be, and with minimal effort. He seems to have the same sort of disproportionate ability that Berowin had with shielding.
Gateways are obviously proportional to strength, but Talent is also there. There's also the fact that gateways are limited to 4x4 paces no matter how strong you are, and that Rand can make several of this size at the same time.
The man is as weak as Morgase, yet can open a gateway on par with Rand? Throws the strength correlation out the window. Obviously the weaker the Talent the more Strength is necessary to make a gateway weave operational, but just as clearly a strong Talent is more important to the ability. Much like Siuan having the same Healing ability after her strength decrease.
The correlation between strength and gateways is well established. The most powerful evidence is that Logain tells Rand not to try and prove that he is stronger than him because he saw that his deathgates were larger. He didn't assume that Rand had a greater Talent, and he didn't waste his time feeling how much saidin Rand was holding. And there are countless other examples of how people's gateways increase as they increase in strength, and how the Forsaken create the largest gateways etc...
Remember, Talent is about illogical and disproportionate ability. It doesn't mean its the rule. Nynaeve herself says that you can hold a stronger woman with a shield unless the gap becomes too large. That doesn't mean that Berowin with her Talent destroys the linear relationship between your strength and who you can shield.
I fully agree that Talent is a component of every weave with every channeler. I think when someone makes a gateway its a question of strength and Talent, but I also believe that pretty much no one has the Talent, so it comes down to strength. Obviously when Talent is present, it trumps everything.
I even think that Healing ability is proportional to strength, but because so many people have the Talent (for instance say 30% of channelers), people only speak about the Talent. When Talent is rare i.e. shielding/gateways then people generally speak about strength. Strong channelers never seem to suffer on any front. Even though Moghedien says she's lame at Compulsion, she still does a good job with it, for instance.
Your example fits right in with an ongoing theme in WOT about misconception. Logain, of all the men out there, shouldn't use this comparison as he had already encountered Androl at this point and fought for him to be raised to Dedicated, or he soon would, based on his remarkable ability. We also know from Naeff (who Logain also knows) that a weaker Channeler with a strong affinity for a flow can match a stronger one, so Logain is even more off base with his assessment as Rand could just as easily be Gifted in Spirit and that would explain a greater effect with a single weave, or he could be both more Gifted and more Talented. No matter how you look at Logain's statement, it's stupid of him, despite being true as his rationale is not well developed since he took only one of the possible reasons Rands gateways were larger into account when there are quiet obviously many other variables that could account for it.
And you are ignoring a bevy of quotes/scenes to the contrary:
1. Siuan specifically states her Healing talent is the same as before. No less despite significantly less Strength
2. Egwene and Elayne are both poor Healers, by your reckoning they should be able to overcome this with more power. We've seen on a number of occasions that this is not the case
3. Androl can make a Gateway as large as Rand
4. Asmodean talks of how poor Semirhage is with Weather
5. Moghedien complaint about her lack of a stronger Talent for Compullsion
6. Naeff matching Nynaeve in Tear with flows of Air
7. Flinn notes he has trouble with gateways, indicating he should be able to make one large based on his strength
There are dozens more throughout the text ... Point being, you must FIRST possess enough Talent to be effective with the skill, only then will strength allow you to compensate and perhaps create as powerful an effect as a Channeler with a stronger Talent but less raw strength. And in single element weaves flow affinity will also play a part in the end effect or a weave.
All Logain's quote tells us is that Rand is both stronger and has at least a similar ability with gateways to Logain. By your statement Logain should also think Androl is stronger than he is!