Active Users:1111 Time:22/11/2024 09:08:30 PM
My two cents: yes, a little, maybe, and possibly not. newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 28/04/2011 06:05:09 PM
My thoughts are sort of condensed and focused into the last four paras, so jump down there if you prefer.

In short, Egwene's post-unification attitude about the rebellion seemed tailor-made to support eggy-flamers ("Flaming Eggs"?). She wasn't there when Salidar started, nor when the Tower collapsed. She herself even helped cause it (by inspiring Gawyn and Galad, the handsome, chivalric, wealthy Tweedledumb and Tweedlebraindead of Randland). Sure, they were using her and putting her in mortal danger, but she choose to join them and even militated the declaration of War.

After all the judgmentalism, after all the moments of self-congratulation, after all the good fortune, she reams out a group of women for not accepting: harsh, surprisingly incompetent leadership (how could Elaida get that much control, being so dumb and emotional); BA penetration; the disbanding of an Ajah; a minimally-legal at best, secret overthrow of their head.

It's true that such a person, taking a new position in the face of past and future crises, might need to speak words of personal and group-inclusive strength. She went over the top. BUT:

Gawyn is an idiot for saying he'd kill Rand asap. Even if he killed Morgase, you gotta wait til after TG. I'm glad Eggy extracted that promise & I don't care if she was manipulative, because he was irrational (and dumb).

And, as usual, poontang is not to blame. Or even to be called "poontang," though I did recognize your use of it as comedic instead of misogynistic or mean. As usual, poontang is just a red herring.

Eggy is clearly hiding from her fears and insecurities by delaying their wedding. She's got the moment on her, then she suddenly changes direction. We surely remember another Emond's Fielder putting off commitment, right? In that scene, I almost thought the EF was *making up* the customs of the village.

It seems silly, really, to think that it's girlish modesty (I love breasts, but please, AS, stop baring them) or nervousness, given the position she's taken (world freaking power) and things Egwene has done. I'd respect it more if it weren't nervous jitters, but rather a doubt over Gawyn himself. Because Gawyn is kind of a guy to doubt marrying even from his own POVs.

The biggest sexual disservice she's doing only comes from two things: (a) she was awful friendly with him before, in taverns, at that; (b) she spies on and has had him in (at least, iirc) his dreams. The bed thing was just dumb, maybe BS didn't want to write a sex scene. I haven't read his other work to know if he can handle those...

Those reasons are big enough that I'll ignore your (very good) points on how Eggy has flouted EF traditions loud and proud from the get-go.

Those reasons do suck, but being a straight guy seems to mean accepting/dealing with women doing sucky little things like Egwene did. I'd still say Egwene doesn't deserve a Prince - maybe a Congar or a milliner's son, someone who doesn't have other responsibilities like Gawyn does. But I'm willing to accept that she deserves him.

And, of course, she doesn't owe him sex. I was thinking about this the other day, and while it works as a funny comment, it doesn't work as a literal truth. If you don't want someone to "know" you, even just not this minute or day, then they shouldn't. Sure, I'd want to put out for a woman who pulls me off a curb before a car hits me. But I wouldn't really owe it to her if I didn't want her - I'm just a little easy, if discriminating; that's me.

To my mind, the biggest problems are (a) the push-and-pull of everything around and after her rescue, and (b) delegating their communications. She *should* have been grateful - you're right that he had no way of taking her orders. This goes extra when her right-hand woman, Siuan, runs out to save her. You need people at your workplace to do things the way you insist, but Egwene *did* make the whole misunderstanding harsh for everyone.

Lots of relationships can be like that, even good ones, until the two people learn to communicate, open up, move past their baggage, etc. I wouldn't want to be with either of them, but I appreciate that the story makes them nearly-equally childish about each other (he has to respect her job bc she's gotta look strong, after all). Still, it does paint Gawyn as being "right" about the threats.

And she was really awful and thoughtless with the letters. For all the mistakes men and women can make with or among each other, that sort of thing would make most think, "oh god you're lame now I'm embarrassed I liked you."

I saved the point that might be most important to me for last: I honestly can't see how she's been so physical with him in the past if their issues are this big; this is what you're not looking at.

They're snapping at each other and being incredibly inconsiderate for days on end. How would you want to be physical with someone who's been insulting you? Or who you dislike so much that you talk to them like they're insolent, or exist to obey you? What are their issues, and how have they got so intimate so often without confronting them?

This is why sex isn't the issue. Why would you have to virtually throw someone away in order to consider that you're not being fair with them? Why would someone have to save your life, or accomplish a miracle (e.g., kill Mesaana) for you to decide that you'll accommodate their needs as best you can? I wouldn't regularly grope a girl in a Cairhienin inn if I felt like that; definitely not with Aiel around.

In any case, this series is sometimes spotty with growing, as opposed to established, romantic relationships. Often, at least, they're usually fun. Ava points it out better than I do, but it's definitely possible in WoT romance. Then again, we're talking about a very oddly-minded, conflicted, dangerous young guy and a queen who reverts to childishness in many different ways...
This message last edited by newyorkersedai on 28/04/2011 at 06:19:53 PM
Reply to message
Egwene vs. Gawyn (ToM spoilers of course) - 28/04/2011 05:01:46 AM 3952 Views
There's fifty feet of crap between rock bottom and your post... *NM* - 28/04/2011 07:40:04 AM 470 Views
Almost three days since the last post...at least I'm trying. - 28/04/2011 12:17:59 PM 931 Views
Sorry about that... - 28/04/2011 10:58:50 PM 990 Views
Ah, its always good to see a good Egwene rant. Bravo! NM *NM* - 28/04/2011 01:58:46 PM 708 Views
Great work, Cannoli - 28/04/2011 02:09:28 PM 945 Views
Regarding the mother's permission.... - 28/04/2011 07:26:29 PM 1014 Views
while i agree with you on most of this - 28/04/2011 04:53:06 PM 1075 Views
hmpf, i post a good point and nothing - 28/04/2011 11:09:53 PM 852 Views
Everybody agrees with you, that's why there were no replies *NM* - 28/04/2011 11:29:13 PM 457 Views
Here's a scary thought - 28/04/2011 11:54:50 PM 1155 Views
OMGWTFBBQ!? - 28/04/2011 11:58:37 PM 913 Views
In regards to the letters... - 28/04/2011 05:28:13 PM 1117 Views
But Gawyn was not Egwene's subject - 28/04/2011 06:09:31 PM 931 Views
Which was why I thought it was appropriate, since he meant to act as Egwene's Warder. - 28/04/2011 06:19:53 PM 896 Views
The only issue is that Warders are not minions - they are honored junior partners. - 28/04/2011 07:39:18 PM 1050 Views
No, the junior partners are Accepted. Warders are essentially personal bodyguards and/or assistants. - 28/04/2011 08:00:17 PM 847 Views
Marriage - 28/04/2011 08:27:53 PM 871 Views
Accepted are not anything, let alone junior partners. Don't think N&E's experience was typical - 28/04/2011 09:32:22 PM 1073 Views
Here's the thing though... - 28/04/2011 11:20:32 PM 898 Views
No, but it's cute and quirky when Faile does it. - 29/04/2011 03:06:50 PM 1066 Views
But... - 29/04/2011 10:52:03 PM 863 Views
That's not really clear - 29/04/2011 11:41:20 PM 991 Views
Actually, it is... - 30/04/2011 06:37:42 PM 1005 Views
Re: Actually, it is... - 30/04/2011 11:17:21 PM 884 Views
Didn't Siuan, Gareth and Gawyn tell her about the Bloodknife they encountered? - 02/05/2011 02:33:08 PM 891 Views
My two cents: yes, a little, maybe, and possibly not. - 28/04/2011 06:05:09 PM 1038 Views
It isn't the worst romance in WoT - 28/04/2011 08:10:23 PM 1201 Views
Re: It isn't the worst romance in WoT - 28/04/2011 08:25:31 PM 1119 Views
thumbs up to you both *NM* - 28/04/2011 08:45:51 PM 439 Views
Re: It isn't the worst romance in WoT - 28/04/2011 08:46:37 PM 1012 Views
Galad is a great option for a political marriage - 28/04/2011 09:04:46 PM 883 Views
Yes, but... - 28/04/2011 09:40:39 PM 928 Views
but galad knew nothing of berelain's closeness to rand, so that couldn't have affected anything - 28/04/2011 10:12:23 PM 962 Views
Exactly - 28/04/2011 10:27:04 PM 805 Views
Yes. An often overlooked point is that ELAYNE, not Egwene, gains the most power in ToM - 28/04/2011 09:42:43 PM 1262 Views
Except... - 28/04/2011 11:16:25 PM 924 Views
Well... - 29/04/2011 12:14:42 AM 876 Views
Re: Well... - 29/04/2011 08:39:37 AM 862 Views
Except they're both really hot. - 28/04/2011 10:01:46 PM 1059 Views
They were naive - 28/04/2011 11:10:34 PM 885 Views
Re: They were naive - 29/04/2011 03:18:42 PM 1123 Views
I can only quibble; Egwene became so insufferable in ToM I'm convinced her fate will be unpleasant. - 04/05/2011 12:41:53 AM 1026 Views
Siuan... - 04/05/2011 05:42:59 AM 1031 Views
Re: Siuan screwed up big time. - 07/05/2011 03:35:46 AM 899 Views
Re: Siuan screwed up big time. - 12/05/2011 02:13:08 PM 889 Views
"McClellanesque", eh? I'll have to remember that one. - 16/05/2011 12:12:23 AM 1161 Views

Reply to Message