My two cents: yes, a little, maybe, and possibly not. - Edit 1
Before modification by newyorkersedai at 28/04/2011 06:14:21 PM
My thoughts are sort of condensed and focused into the last four paras, so jump down there if you prefer.
In short, Egwene's post-unification attitude about the rebellion seemed tailor-made to support eggy-flamers ("Flaming Eggs"?). She wasn't there when Salidar started, nor when the Tower collapsed. She herself even helped cause it (by inspiring Gawyn and Galad, the handsome, chivalric, wealthy Tweedledumb and Tweedlebraindead of Randland). Sure, they were using her and putting her in mortal danger, but she choose to join them and even militated the declaration of War.
After all the judgmentalism, after all the moments of self-congratulation, after all the good fortune, she reams out a group of women for not accepting: harsh, surprisingly incompetent leadership (how could Elaida get that much control, being so dumb and emotional); BA penetration; the disbanding of an Ajah; a minimally-legal at best, secret overthrow of their head.
It's true that such a person, taking a new position in the face of past and future crises, might need to speak words of personal and group-inclusive strength. She went over the top. BUT:
Gawyn is an idiot for saying he'd kill Rand asap. Even if he killed Morgase, you gotta wait til after TG. I'm glad Eggy extracted that promise & I don't care if she was manipulative, because he was irrational (and dumb).
And, as usual, poontang is not to blame. Or even to be called "poontang," though I did recognize your use of it as comedic instead of misogynistic or mean. As usual, poontang is just a red herring.
Eggy is clearly hiding from her fears and insecurities by delaying their wedding. She's got the moment on her, then she suddenly changes direction. We surely remember another Emond's Fielder putting off commitment, right? In that scene, I almost thought the EF was *making up* the customs of the village.
It seems silly, really, to think that it's girlish modesty (I love breasts, but please, AS, stop baring them) or nervousness, given the position she's taken (world freaking power) and things Egwene has done. I'd respect it more if it weren't nervous jitters, but rather a doubt over Gawyn himself. Because Gawyn is kind of a guy to doubt marrying even from his own POVs.
The biggest sexual disservice she's doing only comes from two things: (a) she was awful friendly with him before, in taverns, at that; (b) she spies on and has had him in (at least, iirc) his dreams. The bed thing was just dumb, maybe BS didn't want to write a sex scene. I haven't read his other work to know if he can handle those...
Those reasons are big enough that I'll ignore your (very good) points on how Eggy has flouted EF traditions loud and proud from the get-go.
Those reasons do suck, but being a straight guy seems to mean accepting/dealing with women doing sucky little things like Egwene dide. I'd still say Egwene doesn't deserve a Prince - maybe a Congar or a milliner's son, someone who doesn't have other responsibilities like Gawyn does. But I'm willing to accept that she deserves him.
And, of course, she doesn't owe him sex. I was thinking about this the other day, and while it works as a funny comment, it doesn't work as a literal truth. If you don't want someone to "know" you, even just not this minute or day, then they shouldn't. Sure, I'd want to put out for a woman who pulls me off a curb before a car hits me. But I wouldn't really owe it to her if I didn't want her - I'm just a little easy, if discriminating; that's me.
To my mind, the biggest problems are (a) the push-and-pull of everything around and after her rescue, and (b) delegating their communications. She *should* have been grateful - you're right that he had no way of taking her orders. This goes extra when her right-hand woman, Siuan, runs out to save her. You need people at your workplace to do things the way you insist, but Egwene *did* make the whole misunderstanding harsh for everyone.
Lots of relationships can be like that, even good ones, until the two people learn to communicate, open up, move past their baggage, etc. I wouldn't want to be with either of them, but I appreciate that the story makes them nearly-equally childish about each other (he has to respect her job bc she's gotta look strong, after all). Still, it does paint Gawyn as being "right" about the threats.
And she was really awful and thoughtless with the letters. For all the mistakes men and women can make with or among each other, that sort of thing would make most think, "oh god you're lame now I'm embarrassed I liked you."
I saved the point that might be most important to me for last: I honestly can't see how she's been so physical with him in the past of their issues are this big; this is what Cannoli doesn't look at.
They're snapping at each other and being incredibly inconsiderate for days on end. How would you want to be physical with someone who's been insulting you? Or who you dislike so much that you talk to them like they're insolent, or exist to obey you? What are their issues, and how have they got so intimate so often without confronting them?
This is why sex isn't the issue. Why would you have to virtually throw someone away in order to consider that you're not being fair with them? Why would someone have to save your life, or accomplish a miracle (e.g., kill Mesaana) for you to decide that you'll accommodate their needs as best you can? I wouldn't regularly grope a girl in a Cairhienin inn if I felt like that; definitely not with Aiel around.
In any case, this series is sometimes spotty with growing, as opposed to established, romantic relationships. Often, at least, they're usually fun. Ava points it out better than I do, but it's definitely possible in WoT romance. Then again, we're talking about a very oddly-minded, conflicted, dangerous young guy and a queen who reverts to childishness in many different ways...
In short, Egwene's post-unification attitude about the rebellion seemed tailor-made to support eggy-flamers ("Flaming Eggs"?). She wasn't there when Salidar started, nor when the Tower collapsed. She herself even helped cause it (by inspiring Gawyn and Galad, the handsome, chivalric, wealthy Tweedledumb and Tweedlebraindead of Randland). Sure, they were using her and putting her in mortal danger, but she choose to join them and even militated the declaration of War.
After all the judgmentalism, after all the moments of self-congratulation, after all the good fortune, she reams out a group of women for not accepting: harsh, surprisingly incompetent leadership (how could Elaida get that much control, being so dumb and emotional); BA penetration; the disbanding of an Ajah; a minimally-legal at best, secret overthrow of their head.
It's true that such a person, taking a new position in the face of past and future crises, might need to speak words of personal and group-inclusive strength. She went over the top. BUT:
Gawyn is an idiot for saying he'd kill Rand asap. Even if he killed Morgase, you gotta wait til after TG. I'm glad Eggy extracted that promise & I don't care if she was manipulative, because he was irrational (and dumb).
And, as usual, poontang is not to blame. Or even to be called "poontang," though I did recognize your use of it as comedic instead of misogynistic or mean. As usual, poontang is just a red herring.
Eggy is clearly hiding from her fears and insecurities by delaying their wedding. She's got the moment on her, then she suddenly changes direction. We surely remember another Emond's Fielder putting off commitment, right? In that scene, I almost thought the EF was *making up* the customs of the village.
It seems silly, really, to think that it's girlish modesty (I love breasts, but please, AS, stop baring them) or nervousness, given the position she's taken (world freaking power) and things Egwene has done. I'd respect it more if it weren't nervous jitters, but rather a doubt over Gawyn himself. Because Gawyn is kind of a guy to doubt marrying even from his own POVs.
The biggest sexual disservice she's doing only comes from two things: (a) she was awful friendly with him before, in taverns, at that; (b) she spies on and has had him in (at least, iirc) his dreams. The bed thing was just dumb, maybe BS didn't want to write a sex scene. I haven't read his other work to know if he can handle those...
Those reasons are big enough that I'll ignore your (very good) points on how Eggy has flouted EF traditions loud and proud from the get-go.
Those reasons do suck, but being a straight guy seems to mean accepting/dealing with women doing sucky little things like Egwene dide. I'd still say Egwene doesn't deserve a Prince - maybe a Congar or a milliner's son, someone who doesn't have other responsibilities like Gawyn does. But I'm willing to accept that she deserves him.
And, of course, she doesn't owe him sex. I was thinking about this the other day, and while it works as a funny comment, it doesn't work as a literal truth. If you don't want someone to "know" you, even just not this minute or day, then they shouldn't. Sure, I'd want to put out for a woman who pulls me off a curb before a car hits me. But I wouldn't really owe it to her if I didn't want her - I'm just a little easy, if discriminating; that's me.
To my mind, the biggest problems are (a) the push-and-pull of everything around and after her rescue, and (b) delegating their communications. She *should* have been grateful - you're right that he had no way of taking her orders. This goes extra when her right-hand woman, Siuan, runs out to save her. You need people at your workplace to do things the way you insist, but Egwene *did* make the whole misunderstanding harsh for everyone.
Lots of relationships can be like that, even good ones, until the two people learn to communicate, open up, move past their baggage, etc. I wouldn't want to be with either of them, but I appreciate that the story makes them nearly-equally childish about each other (he has to respect her job bc she's gotta look strong, after all). Still, it does paint Gawyn as being "right" about the threats.
And she was really awful and thoughtless with the letters. For all the mistakes men and women can make with or among each other, that sort of thing would make most think, "oh god you're lame now I'm embarrassed I liked you."
I saved the point that might be most important to me for last: I honestly can't see how she's been so physical with him in the past of their issues are this big; this is what Cannoli doesn't look at.
They're snapping at each other and being incredibly inconsiderate for days on end. How would you want to be physical with someone who's been insulting you? Or who you dislike so much that you talk to them like they're insolent, or exist to obey you? What are their issues, and how have they got so intimate so often without confronting them?
This is why sex isn't the issue. Why would you have to virtually throw someone away in order to consider that you're not being fair with them? Why would someone have to save your life, or accomplish a miracle (e.g., kill Mesaana) for you to decide that you'll accommodate their needs as best you can? I wouldn't regularly grope a girl in a Cairhienin inn if I felt like that; definitely not with Aiel around.
In any case, this series is sometimes spotty with growing, as opposed to established, romantic relationships. Often, at least, they're usually fun. Ava points it out better than I do, but it's definitely possible in WoT romance. Then again, we're talking about a very oddly-minded, conflicted, dangerous young guy and a queen who reverts to childishness in many different ways...