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If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now... Shannow Send a noteboard - 06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM



At the beginning of each quoted paragraph, you put "quote" within brackets <> and finish the paragraph with "/quote" within similar brackets.



Thanks.


Ahhh... I get your problem now.

You're referring to Leanne's quote where she says even if they're Healed to half their former strength, most women would still be stronger than them. This certainly does imply that Daigian is half as strong as the average AS.

But I always discounted that statement in light of what RJ later said about the bell curve and the 37.5%.



Great. So we're ignoring direct quotes now. You can't just ignore this quote. It is clear as daylight. It is one thing if you tell me that you have a different interpretation of a quote, but if you're just going to flatly ignore quotes because it doesn't fit with your model, well, then I am wasting my time here.



This would be my AS list:

Daigian (barely AS): 30

Entry level AS: 35

Average AS: 45

Moiraine: 55

I always take the authors quotes outside the books to be superior to individual quotes within the books.



RJ wrote the scene where Leane gives her strength description. And it ties in perfectly with Siuan saying that now she struggles to lift her own weight, while before she could lift three times her own weight.

If you put Dagian at 30, then the average Aes Sedai is at 60, and Moiraine is at 90. This is clearly not the case, so there goes that theory.


I don't say I don't know why. The reason is that the AS are not a truly random sample. I point out to you the absolutely incontrovertible evidence of the 1000 women who became Novices under Egwene. They are skewed towards weakness too. Explain that to me if the Aes Sedai are a truly random sample.



If they were skewed towards the STRONGER side then it would support your point, but the skewing to the weaker side supports the fact that people who are too weak don't even bother going to the Tower anymore, and that there aren't actually all these strong women waiting out in the countryside to be discovered. They did pick up a bunch of women, and instead of being mostly stronger than the average Aes Sedai, they turned out to be too weak to even qualify.


Then explain the thousand novices, and explain the fact that 1000 years ago, 50 women were stronger than Moiraine.



Simple. In the age of Legends 3% of people could channel. Today it is 1%. Gradually, the number of channelers is decreasing. In all strength categories. The fact that there are so few above Moiraine, proves that they were never very numerous in the first place. As the channeling population shrinks, the outliers will start disappearing first. Additionally, the human population as a whole is shrinking. So if you had 2% of 200 million people before that could channel, you now have 1% of just 50 million people.


There are definitely more women weaker than Moiraine than stronger. In a channeling population of about 250K though, there will indeed be thousands of Moiraine level women.



Sure. But the average won't change. For every additional Moiraine level woman found, there will be 10 Liandrin level women, maintaining the average in roughly the same place.


I can prove why. The Aes Sedai are a non random sample by virtue of their age restrictions, the restriction based on desire to be AS, and the restriction based on sending away women who don't cope with their training.


Non random by social class, willpower etc., but none of these are linked to strength. Strength is randomly distributed among all social classes, women of all personalities and levels of desire to succeed.


You fail to address my point about the 1000 novices. Showing to me that you don't have any reasoning at all, just stubborn insistence that you're right.


See above. I have addressed it.

That's like saying that aliens MUST be out in space because they clearly aren't here on earth.
By the very definition of aliens, they MUST be in space. You should have gone for a better analogy than that!


There you do the same thing again. Assuming that aliens exist, because it fits your theory. Therefore, if aliens aren't on earth, they must be out in space. If the strong women aren't in the Tower, they must be out in the countryside.

You have not proven that there ARE any aliens, anymore than you've proven that there are these hordes of strong women out there.



Nope. I say there are more women stronger than the average AS out there undiscovered than women who're weaker than the average AS. And they're undiscovered because the AS actually don't discover women who can channel. They wait for them to come to Tar Valon.


No, you're not getting it. If you put Moiraine around the 50% or 55% mark, then it means there must be an overwhelming number of women ABOVE Moiraine out there - far more than there are women below her out there - to balance out all the weaker women that have been found so far, plus the 37.5% of ALL women who don't qualify to become Aes Sedai.

Else Moiraine cannot be so close to the average.


Then you're saying RJ was wrong about his own creation. Not an argument that makes any sense.


Yes, that's what I've been saying. RJ didn't understand the implications of idly referring to it as a Bell Curve in a casual interview, instead of just saying the channeling population distribution. Because the entire point of my argument is that a Bell Curve is completely inconsistent with the evidence.
This message last edited by Shannow on 06/02/2011 at 08:51:12 PM
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2225 Views
Huh? - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1159 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1176 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1106 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1108 Views
- 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 988 Views
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Bullshit... - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 958 Views
Unbiased view... - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1073 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 530 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 516 Views
Don't agree - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1090 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 941 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 957 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 942 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 898 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 988 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1005 Views
here ya go they were all Forced - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 872 Views
Nope... - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 960 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1137 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1048 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1049 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 974 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 993 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 991 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 805 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 536 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1020 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 895 Views
How... - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 858 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1012 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 960 Views
Got you now... - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 936 Views
You're clearly delusional... - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 942 Views
You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 934 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1023 Views
Ok... - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 885 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 923 Views
Re: How... - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1082 Views
They're very close now... - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1033 Views
That is unfortunately not true... - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1016 Views
It is... - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 869 Views
Re: It is... - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1124 Views
Yup... - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 877 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1293 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 960 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1228 Views
No - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1000 Views
CLAPS *NM* - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 566 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 893 Views
Indeed - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 883 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 983 Views
I agree with you here - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 896 Views
I don't think that's true.. - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 834 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1095 Views
I think this is a no brainer - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1042 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 882 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 879 Views
Disagree... - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 955 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 860 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 860 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 844 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 897 Views
Nynaeve's strength - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 954 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 623 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1033 Views
Minor quibbles aside... - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1032 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 845 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 980 Views
shrugs - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 907 Views
Re: shrugs - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 907 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 834 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 887 Views
Thanks for clarifying - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 806 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 866 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 481 Views
Cool! *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 524 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 822 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1215 Views
well... - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 957 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 878 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 628 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 934 Views
Yup. - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 853 Views
Trivial - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 871 Views
Uhhh... no... - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 769 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 923 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 955 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 877 Views
wrong - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 986 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 857 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 916 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 577 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 503 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 756 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1068 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 863 Views
And a 1000 years ago... - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 887 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 978 Views
Circular reasoning... - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 922 Views
No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM 1172 Views
If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now... - 06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM 1000 Views
Agreed. - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 965 Views
Agree. *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 585 Views
agreed *NM* - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 602 Views

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