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No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM

Firstly, I don't know how to address individual points, because I can't make the quote function work. Meaning I don't know how to make specific parts of your post appear in green while I post replies inbetween.


At the beginning of each quoted paragraph, you put "quote" within brackets <> and finish the paragraph with "/quote" within similar brackets.

Regarding your overall argument, let me start by showing what you agreed with, and then what this implies.

When I state that the average woman is not much stronger than Dagian, you say the following:

"YES! Thank you for finally figuring that out. But remember, this is the average strength woman. This is absolutely not the average strength Aes Sedai. The average strength Aes Sedai is not much above Daigian, because their highest strength in a thousand years has been Cadsuane. They have had absolutely no representation of the higher echelons."


You say that you agree that the the average woman is not much stronger than Dagian, and then you say that the average Aes Sedai is not much stronger than Dagian either.

"Not much above" isn't a specific term. I admit to forgetting that you used the exact same phrase.


Well sorry to burst your bubble, but Dagian is only about half as strong as the average Aes Sedai. And the average Aes Sedai is by definition exactly in the middle of the Aes Sedai spectrum.

So I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

But once you agree that the average woman is not much stronger than Dagian,then you are stuck, because in a Bell Curve, the average woman is EXACTLY half as strong as the strongest possible woman.

So, if the average woman is only about 50% stronger than Dagian, then it means that the strongest possible woman is only
3 times as strong as Dagian, making Moiraine the strongest possible woman. So there goes your entire argument.

Ahhh... I get your problem now.

You're referring to Leanne's quote where she says even if they're Healed to half their former strength, most women would still be stronger than them. This certainly does imply that Daigian is half as strong as the average AS.

But I always discounted that statement in light of what RJ later said about the bell curve and the 37.5%.

This would be my AS list:

Daigian (barely AS): 30

Entry level AS: 35

Average AS: 45

Moiraine: 55

I always take the authors quotes outside the books to be superior to individual quotes within the books.

As for your closing argument, it is a classic case of circular reasoning.

You say that you don't know why only weaker woman are willing to become Aes Sedai, but it clearly MUST be so because they are all weak!

I don't say I don't know why. The reason is that the AS are not a truly random sample. I point out to you the absolutely incontrovertible evidence of the 1000 women who became Novices under Egwene. They are skewed towards weakness too. Explain that to me if the Aes Sedai are a truly random sample.

Weak by your standards. I say, they are not weak, they are in fact a complete representation of the entire population.

Then explain the thousand novices, and explain the fact that 1000 years ago, 50 women were stronger than Moiraine.

You say there are thousands of invisible women above Moiraine's strength level. I say there are some, but there are greater numbers of invisible women weaker than Moiraine.

There are definitely more women weaker than Moiraine than stronger. In a channeling population of about 250K though, there will indeed be thousands of Moiraine level women.

You say the undiscovered strong ones outweigh the undiscovered weak ones, but you cannot prove why. You fall back on saying it simply HAS to be so because the strong ones aren't there.

I can prove why. The Aes Sedai are a non random sample by virtue of their age restrictions, the restriction based on desire to be AS, and the restriction based on sending away women who don't cope with their training.

Perfect case of circular reasoning. I say prove that the strong ones are somewhere else, and you say they MUST be somewhere out there, because they aren't in the Tower.

You fail to address my point about the 1000 novices. Showing to me that you don't have any reasoning at all, just stubborn insistence that you're right.

That's like saying that aliens MUST be out in space because they clearly aren't here on earth.

By the very definition of aliens, they MUST be in space. You should have gone for a better analogy than that!

Sorry, but that is very weak reasoning.

On your part...

To pull it all together: You say that there are more women stronger than Moiraine out there, undiscovered, than there are weak women out there, undiscovered. You say the reason they are undiscovered is not clear, but it must be so if your Bell Curve is to hold water.

Nope. I say there are more women stronger than the average AS out there undiscovered than women who're weaker than the average AS. And they're undiscovered because the AS actually don't discover women who can channel. They wait for them to come to Tar Valon.

I say, your Bell Curve just doesn't hold water.

Then you're saying RJ was wrong about his own creation. Not an argument that makes any sense.
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... Shannow - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2215 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1148 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? Shannow - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1166 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1097 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1099 Views
fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 980 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1070 Views
Bullshit... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 951 Views
Unbiased view... Nargs - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1068 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* Ghavrel - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 526 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 514 Views
Don't agree Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1084 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 929 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 948 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... Shannow - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 931 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 887 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 979 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 992 Views
here ya go they were all Forced darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 861 Views
Nope... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 950 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1127 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Shannow - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1040 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Master Ablar - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1045 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 966 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 982 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 986 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 798 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 532 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1011 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM 877 Views
I still hold to the point that your analogy is false. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:20:05 PM 941 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 884 Views
How... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 848 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1003 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 955 Views
Got you now... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 929 Views
You're clearly delusional... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 934 Views
You sound ridiculous Nargs - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 926 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous Kieran - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1017 Views
Ok... Nargs - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 879 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 909 Views
Where on earth does it say Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did? darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:06:48 PM 966 Views
Re: How... Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1072 Views
They're very close now... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1022 Views
That is unfortunately not true... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1010 Views
It is... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 858 Views
Re: It is... Sidious - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1112 Views
Yup... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 865 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1285 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 953 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1218 Views
No Sidious - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 991 Views
CLAPS *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 564 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... Shannow - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 885 Views
Indeed Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 862 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 972 Views
I agree with you here darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 883 Views
I don't think that's true.. fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 822 Views
the evidence is that Aginor burnt out trying to channel the Eye and Rand didn't darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:23:50 PM 790 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1082 Views
I think this is a no brainer Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1033 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 872 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 867 Views
Disagree... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 941 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 854 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 851 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 832 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... Shannow - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 893 Views
Nynaeve's strength Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 945 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 620 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1024 Views
Minor quibbles aside... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1023 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 836 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 973 Views
shrugs darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 897 Views
Re: shrugs fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 900 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 824 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 878 Views
Thanks for clarifying darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 795 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 856 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 478 Views
Cool! *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 521 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 813 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1205 Views
well... Sidious - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 950 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work Shannow - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 869 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 625 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 925 Views
Yup. fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 842 Views
Trivial darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 863 Views
Uhhh... no... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 758 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... Shannow - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 915 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 945 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... Shannow - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 866 Views
wrong darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 972 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... Shannow - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 849 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 907 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 574 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 498 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 749 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1057 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 855 Views
And a 1000 years ago... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 875 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 967 Views
Circular reasoning... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 913 Views
No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM 1162 Views
If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now... Shannow - 06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM 987 Views
Agreed. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 954 Views
Agree. *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 582 Views
agreed *NM* darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 600 Views
off tangent question: Has Nynaeve yet to reach full potential or did she already after being ... Bookwyrm - 04/02/2011 08:39:29 PM 980 Views
I think the general concensus is that after the CK she was forced to her full potential darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:44:29 PM 921 Views
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