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No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM

Firstly, I don't know how to address individual points, because I can't make the quote function work. Meaning I don't know how to make specific parts of your post appear in green while I post replies inbetween.


At the beginning of each quoted paragraph, you put "quote" within brackets <> and finish the paragraph with "/quote" within similar brackets.

Regarding your overall argument, let me start by showing what you agreed with, and then what this implies.

When I state that the average woman is not much stronger than Dagian, you say the following:

"YES! Thank you for finally figuring that out. But remember, this is the average strength woman. This is absolutely not the average strength Aes Sedai. The average strength Aes Sedai is not much above Daigian, because their highest strength in a thousand years has been Cadsuane. They have had absolutely no representation of the higher echelons."


You say that you agree that the the average woman is not much stronger than Dagian, and then you say that the average Aes Sedai is not much stronger than Dagian either.

"Not much above" isn't a specific term. I admit to forgetting that you used the exact same phrase.


Well sorry to burst your bubble, but Dagian is only about half as strong as the average Aes Sedai. And the average Aes Sedai is by definition exactly in the middle of the Aes Sedai spectrum.

So I don't understand what point you are trying to make.

But once you agree that the average woman is not much stronger than Dagian,then you are stuck, because in a Bell Curve, the average woman is EXACTLY half as strong as the strongest possible woman.

So, if the average woman is only about 50% stronger than Dagian, then it means that the strongest possible woman is only
3 times as strong as Dagian, making Moiraine the strongest possible woman. So there goes your entire argument.

Ahhh... I get your problem now.

You're referring to Leanne's quote where she says even if they're Healed to half their former strength, most women would still be stronger than them. This certainly does imply that Daigian is half as strong as the average AS.

But I always discounted that statement in light of what RJ later said about the bell curve and the 37.5%.

This would be my AS list:

Daigian (barely AS): 30

Entry level AS: 35

Average AS: 45

Moiraine: 55

I always take the authors quotes outside the books to be superior to individual quotes within the books.

As for your closing argument, it is a classic case of circular reasoning.

You say that you don't know why only weaker woman are willing to become Aes Sedai, but it clearly MUST be so because they are all weak!

I don't say I don't know why. The reason is that the AS are not a truly random sample. I point out to you the absolutely incontrovertible evidence of the 1000 women who became Novices under Egwene. They are skewed towards weakness too. Explain that to me if the Aes Sedai are a truly random sample.

Weak by your standards. I say, they are not weak, they are in fact a complete representation of the entire population.

Then explain the thousand novices, and explain the fact that 1000 years ago, 50 women were stronger than Moiraine.

You say there are thousands of invisible women above Moiraine's strength level. I say there are some, but there are greater numbers of invisible women weaker than Moiraine.

There are definitely more women weaker than Moiraine than stronger. In a channeling population of about 250K though, there will indeed be thousands of Moiraine level women.

You say the undiscovered strong ones outweigh the undiscovered weak ones, but you cannot prove why. You fall back on saying it simply HAS to be so because the strong ones aren't there.

I can prove why. The Aes Sedai are a non random sample by virtue of their age restrictions, the restriction based on desire to be AS, and the restriction based on sending away women who don't cope with their training.

Perfect case of circular reasoning. I say prove that the strong ones are somewhere else, and you say they MUST be somewhere out there, because they aren't in the Tower.

You fail to address my point about the 1000 novices. Showing to me that you don't have any reasoning at all, just stubborn insistence that you're right.

That's like saying that aliens MUST be out in space because they clearly aren't here on earth.

By the very definition of aliens, they MUST be in space. You should have gone for a better analogy than that!

Sorry, but that is very weak reasoning.

On your part...

To pull it all together: You say that there are more women stronger than Moiraine out there, undiscovered, than there are weak women out there, undiscovered. You say the reason they are undiscovered is not clear, but it must be so if your Bell Curve is to hold water.

Nope. I say there are more women stronger than the average AS out there undiscovered than women who're weaker than the average AS. And they're undiscovered because the AS actually don't discover women who can channel. They wait for them to come to Tar Valon.

I say, your Bell Curve just doesn't hold water.

Then you're saying RJ was wrong about his own creation. Not an argument that makes any sense.
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... Shannow - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2224 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1158 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? Shannow - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1176 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1106 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1107 Views
fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 988 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1076 Views
Bullshit... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 958 Views
Unbiased view... Nargs - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1073 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* Ghavrel - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 530 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 516 Views
Don't agree Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1089 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 941 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 956 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... Shannow - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 941 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 898 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 988 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1005 Views
here ya go they were all Forced darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 872 Views
Nope... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 959 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1137 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Shannow - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1048 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Master Ablar - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1049 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 974 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 993 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 991 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 805 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 536 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1020 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM 886 Views
I still hold to the point that your analogy is false. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:20:05 PM 945 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 895 Views
How... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 858 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1012 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 959 Views
Got you now... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 936 Views
You're clearly delusional... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 941 Views
You sound ridiculous Nargs - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 932 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous Kieran - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1023 Views
Ok... Nargs - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 885 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 923 Views
Where on earth does it say Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did? darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:06:48 PM 975 Views
Re: How... Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1082 Views
They're very close now... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1032 Views
That is unfortunately not true... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1016 Views
It is... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 868 Views
Re: It is... Sidious - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1123 Views
Yup... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 876 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1292 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 960 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1228 Views
No Sidious - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1000 Views
CLAPS *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 566 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... Shannow - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 892 Views
Indeed Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 883 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 983 Views
I agree with you here darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 895 Views
I don't think that's true.. fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 834 Views
the evidence is that Aginor burnt out trying to channel the Eye and Rand didn't darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:23:50 PM 797 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1095 Views
I think this is a no brainer Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1040 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 882 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 879 Views
Disagree... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 955 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 860 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 859 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 844 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... Shannow - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 897 Views
Nynaeve's strength Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 953 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 623 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1033 Views
Minor quibbles aside... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1031 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 845 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 980 Views
shrugs darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 907 Views
Re: shrugs fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 907 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 834 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 887 Views
Thanks for clarifying darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 806 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 866 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 481 Views
Cool! *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 524 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 821 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1214 Views
well... Sidious - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 957 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work Shannow - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 878 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 628 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 933 Views
Yup. fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 853 Views
Trivial darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 871 Views
Uhhh... no... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 769 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... Shannow - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 922 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 954 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... Shannow - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 876 Views
wrong darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 986 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... Shannow - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 857 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 916 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 577 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 503 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 756 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1068 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 862 Views
And a 1000 years ago... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 887 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 978 Views
Circular reasoning... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 922 Views
No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM 1171 Views
If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now... Shannow - 06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM 999 Views
Agreed. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 965 Views
Agree. *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 585 Views
agreed *NM* darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 602 Views
off tangent question: Has Nynaeve yet to reach full potential or did she already after being ... Bookwyrm - 04/02/2011 08:39:29 PM 991 Views
I think the general concensus is that after the CK she was forced to her full potential darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:44:29 PM 932 Views
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