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Re: You are not only wrong in your call, Sidious Send a noteboard - 08/12/2010 09:13:37 AM
but possible the dumbest poster ever, akin to some form of debilitating plague. I'm surprised that people don't start bleeding from their eyes or spontaneously combusting from being in the same forum as you, let alone being subjected to what you have termed 'an argument'.

With civilities out of the way, let's get down to business .

We all hate exams but only a moron challenges the rules on the day of the test. [...] All of us know how inane exam customs can be, but you follow them to reach the end point so that you can get on with your life.


This is an interesting premise. Given that the test is the quintessence of stupidity, failure to adhere to its strictures can only be called a sign of intelligence. However, if we go by your assumption that failure to adhere to those strictures is stupidity, then we come to the paradoxical conclusion that intellect is stupidity. Which leads us to the conclusion that the White Tower is probably a new ministry in 1984. Or that one of our premises is wrong.

After that Nynaeve carried on breaking rules. She was told not to run between the stars, and not to channel before she reached them, and she did both.


Aside from anything else, I really hope that nobody is convinced by an argument that essentially goes "after she had her memory erased, she failed to remember to...".

Now people may wonder what's the point of giving instructions to someone who will invariably forget them, but the answer, as already mentioned, is that the test is the quintessence of stupidity.

After the test she initiates a saccharin speech about morality and the higher purpose that apparently silences all the Sitters (yeah right).


Any argument that is based on the alleged intellect of the Sitters of the Hall is destined for ridicule. Need I remind you that no less than one book ago, Egwene met with the highest White Sisters (the Ajah allegedly dedicated to reason and logic) and completely wowed them by a conversation that goes as follows:

SITTERS: How would you deal with the Dragon Reborn?
EGWENE: I would have sent a delegation of Aes Sedai.
SITTERS: We tried that.
EGWENE: Mine wouldn't be sent by a Red Amyrlin, therefore everything would have worked out fine.
SITTERS: Light! Your competence and ability to reason is so far above us! Akin to that of fainting goats, or an especially moronic snail!

Of course, the two issues may be related. Given that the capacity for rational thought is antithetical to the Tests, nobody actually qualified for the White Ajah has been raised in millennia.

The point of the test is to prove that the woman can remain calm and achieve a higher purpose in the face of extreme stress, which Nynaeve cannot do. The fact that Nynaeve wants to rescue children and other suffering people when she's exposed to them makes her a serious risk to a higher purpose.


Yes, the higher purpose of staying expressionless. I mean, human lives are one thing, but if an Aes Sedai shows an expression she might get wrinkles or something, ruining that ageless look. Priorities people!

All the Shadow has to do to someone like Nynaeve is exploit a weakness like this, whereas a true Aes Sedai should technically be immune to this type of temptation. If Cyndane sees Nynaeve protecting Rand, all she needs to do is break Mat's legs and leave him bleeding at the bottom of the hill... Nynaeve would abandon all higher purposes and run to help him.


At least she'd run. A "proper" Aes Sedai would be very slowly walking to help.

No, bar that. Helping either of them is not actually part of their duties, and in fact a flaw that can be abused by what you have decided to call reasoning, so what 'true Aes Sedai' would do if they learned that Cyndane endangering Rand would be to perhaps help him, assuming they achieved the greater consensus, and supposing it did not interfere with their walking slowly and their expressionlessness.

And you call that an exploitable weakness, but what is the alternative? I could wipe out the entire White Tower with nothing more than minor Illusion. create an illusory arch or star over a cliff, maybe have a ghostly voice say "the way back will come only once, be steadfast," and there goes the entire White Tower off the cliff. People who haven't paid attention may think that I'm joking, that I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. The Aes Sedai perceive the cliff, they perceive that this is a stupid idea, but none of them would be there if they hadn't consistently demonstrated the ability to ignore reason and everything they perceive as evidence of the real world in order to throw themselves into that arch. They would throw themselves off that cliff, because the only other alternative is that they never came out of those testing ter'angreal. This is the simple fact. I couldn't make it up if I tried.

I've never thought that the test for Aes Sedai is bad. I actually think its ideal. Channeling under extreme stress is almost all that matters when someone who can wield something as deadly as the OP and is relied upon by the general populace, is raised.


That's because you hold the same idea of an ideal channeler as Mazrim Taim. The ideal for a channeler is someone who doesn't care if anything or anyone is destroyed so long as it doesn't interfere with their ability to control magical forces of devastation at will.

EDIT: Incidentally, I assume this is another one of your parody posts relating to Cannoli's previous topic. You don't really believe this, do you?


No really, this is a serious debate. I'm a bit disappointed that you've taken this down into the gutter from the beginning, unless you're just starting some banter between us.

I personally think that you, like many posters, have serious oversights regarding the function of the test. Serenity is not about looking like a cold mask and not spreading panic. Its a rather idiotic analogy you made, as were many of your other examples. The purpose of the serenity exercise is to help her maintain inner calm which you would know is essential to mastering saidar if you'd paid attention to the series. As I pointed out Graendal almost lost saidar due to panic and that is what needs to be prevented in a crisis. It's about being surrounded at dumai wells and channeling with calm and not becoming hysterical and running all over the place, and losing the ability to hold the power.

As for the Taim comment, its untrue and stupid. Sometimes a greater goal is present that supercedes an indiviual. Anyone of any important rank whose ever commanded people will tell you that.

The purpose of the test is to prove that a woman can function under stress. The series has provided tons of examples where this is essential in an aes sedai. And anyway, you miss the point just like Nynaeve did. Its not a test to see what you would do in a situation! Its a test for you to weave while under stress. Your judgment is a non-issue, but your skills with saidar certainly are. Finding a deeper meaning in this test is like finding a deeper meaning in a driving test. They just want to see you drive the car. Don't bitch and whine if you fail because you object to the philosophy of the test and take the car for a wild spin, claiming that you were rushing to help an injured dog just do the damn test like they want. When you have the shawl you can run off and help children, or shield men, or become a darkfriend. Whatever...
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This message last edited by Sidious on 08/12/2010 at 09:31:55 AM
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Nynaeve's stupidity and the test for Aes Sedai - 07/12/2010 08:27:05 PM 4290 Views
Just like all women. - 07/12/2010 09:15:12 PM 1173 Views
Way to totally misunderstand the chapter - 07/12/2010 09:39:08 PM 1649 Views
I second this - 07/12/2010 10:10:24 PM 1346 Views
your bold is stuck. *NM* - 07/12/2010 10:21:22 PM 575 Views
He BOLDLY seconded it... *NM* - 08/12/2010 03:04:33 PM 551 Views
which is quite excellent. I was just leting him know *NM* - 08/12/2010 03:28:24 PM 457 Views
I think that statement says it all. - 07/12/2010 10:19:50 PM 1377 Views
Thanks. That's exactly what I think. - 08/12/2010 08:29:28 AM 1245 Views
+1, well said *NM* - 08/12/2010 11:19:29 AM 513 Views
Agrees *NM* - 09/12/2010 03:27:53 PM 950 Views
Yes, the OP totally whiffed here. Nyn couldn't remember.. - 11/12/2010 01:50:11 AM 1191 Views
On the whole, the test is innappropriate IMO - 07/12/2010 09:40:08 PM 1469 Views
I agree with this entirely *NM* - 07/12/2010 10:07:52 PM 509 Views
very well said *NM* - 07/12/2010 10:23:06 PM 459 Views
It's kind of a chicken and egg thing - 07/12/2010 11:13:19 PM 1120 Views
Re: It's kind of a chicken and egg thing - 08/12/2010 12:37:20 AM 1409 Views
nice post - 08/12/2010 09:20:02 AM 1240 Views
Isn't it implied - 08/12/2010 02:16:58 PM 1007 Views
no they were students together - 08/12/2010 05:33:17 PM 957 Views
No, Lanfear was older than Lews - 08/12/2010 07:21:45 PM 1180 Views
Where on earth did you get that from? - 08/12/2010 08:41:16 PM 1108 Views
Re: Where on earth did you get that from? - 09/12/2010 10:27:20 AM 1116 Views
Re: Where on earth did you get that from? - 09/12/2010 03:56:32 PM 1190 Views
I always got the impression that they were together for quiet some time - 09/12/2010 04:34:23 PM 1140 Views
I think skill with Saidar is easy enough to judge as it's a simple matter to see the skill - 08/12/2010 05:37:27 PM 1039 Views
I think the greens should have been on Nynaeve's side as well - 08/12/2010 06:18:16 PM 1159 Views
Problem is they are Aes Sedai and thus more likley to be political rather than rational! *NM* - 08/12/2010 08:52:00 PM 810 Views
too f'n true *NM* - 09/12/2010 12:17:58 AM 519 Views
Re: nice post - 09/12/2010 01:23:50 PM 1222 Views
On the matter of strength - 09/12/2010 08:51:36 PM 1061 Views
Re: On the matter of strength - 10/12/2010 10:38:42 AM 1061 Views
Strength was "prized" in the AoL ... but lack of strength was not a negative - 12/12/2010 01:41:08 AM 1023 Views
The test is stupid and it was about time someone pointed it out - 07/12/2010 10:29:38 PM 1061 Views
Channeling under duress IS necessary for ALL Aes Sedai - 05/01/2011 12:04:53 AM 1170 Views
Well - 07/12/2010 11:03:38 PM 1105 Views
Status is not an end in itself. *NM* - 07/12/2010 11:52:37 PM 528 Views
They're not really stupid... - 08/12/2010 01:00:20 AM 1138 Views
They're constantly outsmarted by a teenage girl that has spent most of her life in a damn farm. - 08/12/2010 10:32:50 AM 1123 Views
yeah because that's so realistic - 08/12/2010 12:17:29 PM 1072 Views
Egwene had everything handed to her on a silver platter. - 08/12/2010 11:50:17 PM 1047 Views
Bah... - 09/12/2010 10:56:24 AM 1159 Views
Nope, the Sitters were always stupid - 09/12/2010 12:37:05 PM 1088 Views
cause being rural automatically makes you dumb?..... *NM* - 09/12/2010 05:34:11 PM 594 Views
It makes you uneducated - 09/12/2010 05:46:49 PM 1014 Views
You are not only wrong in your call, - 08/12/2010 04:39:44 AM 1336 Views
Re: You are not only wrong in your call, - 08/12/2010 09:13:37 AM 1353 Views
if that is the purpose of the test - 08/12/2010 01:34:45 PM 1061 Views
minor disagreement - 08/12/2010 05:27:51 PM 1137 Views
Yes, but you can be not-panicked and not calm of body - 08/12/2010 06:38:56 PM 961 Views
not really the same thing as what the AS are getting at though - 08/12/2010 09:02:05 PM 1611 Views
that's retarded, imo - 09/12/2010 12:21:27 AM 1087 Views
About Elaida... - 09/12/2010 12:29:21 PM 1056 Views
...no wonder the Aes Sedai are floundering - 09/12/2010 01:43:42 PM 863 Views
Oh it's totally stupid! - 09/12/2010 04:37:14 PM 1107 Views
No I know why she took the job. I just don't understand why she got it - 09/12/2010 04:52:34 PM 1050 Views
I think Elaida just smarmed up at the right time, Morgase was very young then - 09/12/2010 05:52:29 PM 1100 Views
hmm. curse smarming, then *NM* - 09/12/2010 07:47:26 PM 459 Views
As I recall... - 10/12/2010 05:18:25 AM 1075 Views
Oh. Well, I'm sorry then. - 08/12/2010 06:48:50 PM 1110 Views
I think it has already been established that the purpose of the test is to ensure that - 08/12/2010 09:59:18 PM 855 Views
Yeah, but how does that work? - 08/12/2010 10:24:35 PM 1015 Views
Somewhere in the sub-conscious they know what they're doing is important to them. - 09/12/2010 12:20:47 AM 1125 Views
Even so, it wouldn't work. - 09/12/2010 03:32:55 AM 1038 Views
Another headless chicken example. - 09/12/2010 12:30:02 AM 1021 Views
the headless chicken is just such a lovely metaphor for panic *NM* - 09/12/2010 04:48:11 AM 460 Views
Re: Oh. Well, I'm sorry then. - 09/12/2010 12:07:15 PM 1111 Views
Re: Oh. Well, I'm sorry then. - 10/12/2010 05:32:27 AM 1181 Views
The main difference - 10/12/2010 05:50:43 AM 1041 Views
I'm not sure I agree. - 08/12/2010 12:17:12 PM 1110 Views
You seem to have no grasp of the difference between "politic" and "right" - 09/12/2010 02:59:50 AM 1165 Views
I hate it when I love you just a little *NM* - 09/12/2010 04:46:57 AM 492 Views
Re: You seem to have no grasp of the difference between "politic" and "right" - 09/12/2010 09:26:21 AM 1073 Views
That's not the dilema - 09/12/2010 05:23:19 PM 1262 Views
That's not what it's really about - 10/12/2010 05:44:12 AM 1018 Views
The paralells are not obvious to me... - 15/12/2010 11:42:51 AM 1102 Views
More like - 15/12/2010 01:26:40 PM 1016 Views

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