Re: You are not only wrong in your call, - Edit 1
Before modification by Sidious at 08/12/2010 09:31:55 AM
but possible the dumbest poster ever, akin to some form of debilitating plague. I'm surprised that people don't start bleeding from their eyes or spontaneously combusting from being in the same forum as you, let alone being subjected to what you have termed 'an argument'.
With civilities out of the way, let's get down to business
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This is an interesting premise. Given that the test is the quintessence of stupidity, failure to adhere to its strictures can only be called a sign of intelligence. However, if we go by your assumption that failure to adhere to those strictures is stupidity, then we come to the paradoxical conclusion that intellect is stupidity. Which leads us to the conclusion that the White Tower is probably a new ministry in 1984. Or that one of our premises is wrong.
Aside from anything else, I really hope that nobody is convinced by an argument that essentially goes "after she had her memory erased, she failed to remember to...".
Now people may wonder what's the point of giving instructions to someone who will invariably forget them, but the answer, as already mentioned, is that the test is the quintessence of stupidity.
Any argument that is based on the alleged intellect of the Sitters of the Hall is destined for ridicule. Need I remind you that no less than one book ago, Egwene met with the highest White Sisters (the Ajah allegedly dedicated to reason and logic) and completely wowed them by a conversation that goes as follows:
SITTERS: How would you deal with the Dragon Reborn?
EGWENE: I would have sent a delegation of Aes Sedai.
SITTERS: We tried that.
EGWENE: Mine wouldn't be sent by a Red Amyrlin, therefore everything would have worked out fine.
SITTERS: Light! Your competence and ability to reason is so far above us! Akin to that of fainting goats, or an especially moronic snail!
Of course, the two issues may be related. Given that the capacity for rational thought is antithetical to the Tests, nobody actually qualified for the White Ajah has been raised in millennia.
Yes, the higher purpose of staying expressionless. I mean, human lives are one thing, but if an Aes Sedai shows an expression she might get wrinkles or something, ruining that ageless look. Priorities people!
At least she'd run. A "proper" Aes Sedai would be very slowly walking to help.
No, bar that. Helping either of them is not actually part of their duties, and in fact a flaw that can be abused by what you have decided to call reasoning, so what 'true Aes Sedai' would do if they learned that Cyndane endangering Rand would be to perhaps help him, assuming they achieved the greater consensus, and supposing it did not interfere with their walking slowly and their expressionlessness.
And you call that an exploitable weakness, but what is the alternative? I could wipe out the entire White Tower with nothing more than minor Illusion. create an illusory arch or star over a cliff, maybe have a ghostly voice say "the way back will come only once, be steadfast," and there goes the entire White Tower off the cliff. People who haven't paid attention may think that I'm joking, that I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. The Aes Sedai perceive the cliff, they perceive that this is a stupid idea, but none of them would be there if they hadn't consistently demonstrated the ability to ignore reason and everything they perceive as evidence of the real world in order to throw themselves into that arch. They would throw themselves off that cliff, because the only other alternative is that they never came out of those testing ter'angreal. This is the simple fact. I couldn't make it up if I tried.
That's because you hold the same idea of an ideal channeler as Mazrim Taim. The ideal for a channeler is someone who doesn't care if anything or anyone is destroyed so long as it doesn't interfere with their ability to control magical forces of devastation at will.
EDIT: Incidentally, I assume this is another one of your parody posts relating to Cannoli's previous topic. You don't really believe this, do you?
With civilities out of the way, let's get down to business
.We all hate exams but only a moron challenges the rules on the day of the test. [...] All of us know how inane exam customs can be, but you follow them to reach the end point so that you can get on with your life.
This is an interesting premise. Given that the test is the quintessence of stupidity, failure to adhere to its strictures can only be called a sign of intelligence. However, if we go by your assumption that failure to adhere to those strictures is stupidity, then we come to the paradoxical conclusion that intellect is stupidity. Which leads us to the conclusion that the White Tower is probably a new ministry in 1984. Or that one of our premises is wrong.
After that Nynaeve carried on breaking rules. She was told not to run between the stars, and not to channel before she reached them, and she did both.
Aside from anything else, I really hope that nobody is convinced by an argument that essentially goes "after she had her memory erased, she failed to remember to...".
Now people may wonder what's the point of giving instructions to someone who will invariably forget them, but the answer, as already mentioned, is that the test is the quintessence of stupidity.
After the test she initiates a saccharin speech about morality and the higher purpose that apparently silences all the Sitters (yeah right).
Any argument that is based on the alleged intellect of the Sitters of the Hall is destined for ridicule. Need I remind you that no less than one book ago, Egwene met with the highest White Sisters (the Ajah allegedly dedicated to reason and logic) and completely wowed them by a conversation that goes as follows:
SITTERS: How would you deal with the Dragon Reborn?
EGWENE: I would have sent a delegation of Aes Sedai.
SITTERS: We tried that.
EGWENE: Mine wouldn't be sent by a Red Amyrlin, therefore everything would have worked out fine.
SITTERS: Light! Your competence and ability to reason is so far above us! Akin to that of fainting goats, or an especially moronic snail!
Of course, the two issues may be related. Given that the capacity for rational thought is antithetical to the Tests, nobody actually qualified for the White Ajah has been raised in millennia.
The point of the test is to prove that the woman can remain calm and achieve a higher purpose in the face of extreme stress, which Nynaeve cannot do. The fact that Nynaeve wants to rescue children and other suffering people when she's exposed to them makes her a serious risk to a higher purpose.
Yes, the higher purpose of staying expressionless. I mean, human lives are one thing, but if an Aes Sedai shows an expression she might get wrinkles or something, ruining that ageless look. Priorities people!
All the Shadow has to do to someone like Nynaeve is exploit a weakness like this, whereas a true Aes Sedai should technically be immune to this type of temptation. If Cyndane sees Nynaeve protecting Rand, all she needs to do is break Mat's legs and leave him bleeding at the bottom of the hill... Nynaeve would abandon all higher purposes and run to help him.
At least she'd run. A "proper" Aes Sedai would be very slowly walking to help.
No, bar that. Helping either of them is not actually part of their duties, and in fact a flaw that can be abused by what you have decided to call reasoning, so what 'true Aes Sedai' would do if they learned that Cyndane endangering Rand would be to perhaps help him, assuming they achieved the greater consensus, and supposing it did not interfere with their walking slowly and their expressionlessness.
And you call that an exploitable weakness, but what is the alternative? I could wipe out the entire White Tower with nothing more than minor Illusion. create an illusory arch or star over a cliff, maybe have a ghostly voice say "the way back will come only once, be steadfast," and there goes the entire White Tower off the cliff. People who haven't paid attention may think that I'm joking, that I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. The Aes Sedai perceive the cliff, they perceive that this is a stupid idea, but none of them would be there if they hadn't consistently demonstrated the ability to ignore reason and everything they perceive as evidence of the real world in order to throw themselves into that arch. They would throw themselves off that cliff, because the only other alternative is that they never came out of those testing ter'angreal. This is the simple fact. I couldn't make it up if I tried.
I've never thought that the test for Aes Sedai is bad. I actually think its ideal. Channeling under extreme stress is almost all that matters when someone who can wield something as deadly as the OP and is relied upon by the general populace, is raised.
That's because you hold the same idea of an ideal channeler as Mazrim Taim. The ideal for a channeler is someone who doesn't care if anything or anyone is destroyed so long as it doesn't interfere with their ability to control magical forces of devastation at will.
EDIT: Incidentally, I assume this is another one of your parody posts relating to Cannoli's previous topic. You don't really believe this, do you?
No really, this is a serious debate. I'm a bit disappointed that you've taken this down into the gutter from the beginning, unless you're just starting some banter between us.
I personally think that you, like many posters, have serious oversights regarding the function of the test. Serenity is not about looking like a cold mask and not spreading panic. Its a rather idiotic analogy you made, as were many of your other examples. The purpose of the serenity exercise is to help her maintain inner calm which you would know is essential to mastering saidar if you'd paid attention to the series. As I pointed out Graendal almost lost saidar due to panic and that is what needs to be prevented in a crisis. It's about being surrounded at dumai wells and channeling with calm and not becoming hysterical and running all over the place, and losing the ability to hold the power.
As for the Taim comment, its untrue and stupid. Sometimes a greater goal is present that supercedes an indiviual. Anyone of any important rank whose ever commanded people will tell you that.
The purpose of the test is to prove that a woman can function under stress. The series has provided tons of examples where this is essential in an aes sedai.