Not by my reckoning. *Still contains ToM spoilers*
Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 11/11/2010 04:22:59 AM
1. Graendal gets wind of the fact that Rand is coming to Arad Doman. She starts to make contingency plans - the same plans that she advised Sammael to make for if ever Rand appeared on her doorstep.
We know this was not the case, because when she did learn of Rand finding her, she went for the no-plan hasty escape. She had no contingency for Rand appearing on her doorstep.
2. When Aran'gar arrives at her palace, she takes Delana and teaches her Compulsion.
This is wrong. Graendal has to ask Aran'gar whether Delana knows Compulsion. Clearly, she never taught her. Even more clearly, she did not have this prepared since Aran'gar arrived.
Graendal says she will not risk strength and skill, but Delana has neither, and will only know one advanced weave after some training. Graendal needs Delana for this purpose and starts setting up a proxy, well aware that she is going to throw Delana in front of the first sign of the Dragon Reborn.
This again didn't happen. I won't be so petty as to detract from Sidious' theory just because Graendal didn't speak the words he thought she might use, but I do have to point out that Graendal never planned this, and so never intended to use Delana for this purpose.
3. Rand sends in his messenger and Graendal figures out what is happening. She gets Delana to compel the man, while she and Aran'gar make plans.
Graendal did not figure out what was happening when Ramshalan arrives. She says so herself, admitting that "she'd been played" and that she only figured it out at the last second. She also wasn't making any plans with Aran'gar, obviously.
4. Aran'gar senses saidin, and she and Graendal Travel.They deliberately leave Delana behind to die. Graendal doesn't know that Rand will use balefire, but Aran'gar senses so much saidin that Graendal hopes that Rand will take any evidence of saidar as evidence that she was in the palace when he destroyed it by whatever means.
Obviously Graendal didn't take Aran'gar with her, nor did Aran'gar sensing saidin have anything to do with Graendal's actions.
5. The Compulsion is unravelled, but Graendal and Aran'gar are safe. The reason for Delana tagging along with Aran'gar is revealed, as she is sacrificed to perform a masterful ruse.
Aran'gar is not safe, nor was Delana intended as a ruse or brought for this reason.
He got the major point right - that Delana did the Compulsion, and that Graendal survived. In fact, if the scene had gone as Sidious suggested, I might be happier with it. The way it was written makes little sense.
The end result - Graendal's survival - was correct, but that is not sufficient for me to grant this theory credibility. I will accord him points for guessing that Delana would be sacrificed to cause the vanished Compulsion, but the core of Sidious' theory was that Graendal survived because she had planned for this. I argued then and would still argue that this is absurd, and the reality agrees: Graendal was caught completely off guard by Rand's attack. Only the use of heretofore unknown True Power abilities (and I don't think we even knew Graendal could access the True Power before Towers of Midnight, I was certainly under the assumption of Moridin's exclusivity) allowed her to survive.
Sidious' conclusion was correct, but his reasoning was not, so I cannot agree to validate his theory. Because it was all those who opposed his theory who were correct - Graendal did not anticipate Rand's assault, Graendal did not plan for it. And Graendal would not have survived it if not for abilities that were at the time of the reasoning unknown to us.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
This message last edited by Fanatic-Templar on 11/11/2010 at 04:25:27 AM
What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory?
13/07/2010 09:00:05 AM
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Too convulted to make any sense...
13/07/2010 09:22:26 AM
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What is the reason Delana is with Graendal?
13/07/2010 09:31:36 AM
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Indeed...
13/07/2010 10:06:32 AM
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Re: Indeed...
13/07/2010 10:10:43 AM
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That is wrong
13/07/2010 10:19:32 AM
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Re: That is wrong
13/07/2010 10:29:16 AM
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Plus...
13/07/2010 12:18:12 PM
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sorry but no
13/07/2010 09:49:13 AM
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Exactly
13/07/2010 10:14:06 AM
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It makes perfect sense.
13/07/2010 02:33:09 PM
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I won't be 100% sure she's dead until we get a solid "she's toast" from either the text
13/07/2010 04:21:18 PM
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This is actually the first thing that I thought of in that scene *NM*
13/07/2010 04:08:48 PM
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Until I have absolute proof to the contrary.(Confirmation by Harriot or BS)
13/07/2010 04:20:49 PM
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If Graendal didn't know Rand would use balefire, why would she have Delana do the Compulsion?
13/07/2010 04:57:10 PM
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Yes, Graendal completely outsmarted Rand.
13/07/2010 05:56:30 PM
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I just think it's funny that people make fun of such a basic plan as convoluted.
13/07/2010 06:33:44 PM
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Indeed... imagine how a truly complex plan would confound them
13/07/2010 08:41:54 PM
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Re: Indeed... imagine how a truly complex plan would confound them
13/07/2010 09:09:09 PM
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What are you talking about? I was agreeing with you, it's absurdly simple.
13/07/2010 09:27:22 PM
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Huh
14/07/2010 05:22:51 AM
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Why did the lair explode?
14/07/2010 06:17:32 AM
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While I generally agree with you...you missed an important detail.
14/07/2010 02:06:31 PM
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What did Rand tell Ramshalan...
14/07/2010 04:29:04 PM
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Re: What did Rand tell Ramshalan...
14/07/2010 04:52:11 PM
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...
14/07/2010 09:22:21 PM
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he doesn't have to read Rands mind
14/07/2010 09:41:59 PM
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Provide a quote.
15/07/2010 04:10:06 AM
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read the chapter
10/08/2010 09:22:02 PM
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Right, that's why I asked. Because I know you can't.
10/08/2010 10:00:14 PM
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sigh ... always so aggressive ... why you gotta hate
11/08/2010 03:23:31 AM
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Oh if that's what you want
11/08/2010 04:45:19 PM
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Yes, he pretty much says out loud that he can't just wipe out her fortress.
11/08/2010 06:57:39 PM
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Re: Yes, he pretty much says out loud that he can't just wipe out her fortress.
11/08/2010 09:20:10 PM
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why does it have to be a well thought out plan?
14/07/2010 04:14:17 PM
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She would have to teach her pawn Compulsion.
14/07/2010 04:30:12 PM
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No she'd only have to show Delana a weave to duplicate
14/07/2010 04:48:24 PM
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Nonsense.
14/07/2010 09:30:01 PM
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yet Sorilea, can duplicate Cadsuane's weaves after one quick glance
14/07/2010 09:52:01 PM
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Which ones?
15/07/2010 04:14:23 AM
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Re: I just think it's funny that people make fun of such a basic plan as convoluted.
14/07/2010 05:40:11 PM
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She's so smart, she knows Rand will bring along Nynaeve to check Delana's Compulsion
13/07/2010 08:32:19 PM
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we've seen any number of times that a Channeler can make an exact copy of weaves
14/07/2010 04:10:41 PM
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I so desperately want you to be right.
14/07/2010 06:30:16 AM
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Graendal being alive would make more of a statement...
14/07/2010 06:53:48 AM
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Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory?
14/07/2010 05:44:38 PM
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Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory?
14/07/2010 07:21:29 PM
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Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory?
10/08/2010 09:12:17 PM
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Sounds about right. Wonder if he intends to try and get Callandor? *NM*
13/08/2010 07:41:47 AM
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Honestly, if she's still alive, how is she going to die?
16/07/2010 05:49:06 AM
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Ahh, just remembered that some people think some Forsaken will survive Tarmon Gai'don. Still... *NM*
16/07/2010 05:51:41 AM
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Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory?
10/11/2010 04:09:41 AM
- 737 Views
Why? *Towers of Midnight spoilers*
10/11/2010 04:41:11 AM
- 704 Views
Because he was right, that's why.
11/11/2010 03:39:39 AM
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Not by my reckoning. *Still contains ToM spoilers*
11/11/2010 04:22:59 AM
- 651 Views