Active Users:1247 Time:23/11/2024 06:58:19 AM
Not by my reckoning. *Still contains ToM spoilers* Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 11/11/2010 04:22:59 AM
1. Graendal gets wind of the fact that Rand is coming to Arad Doman. She starts to make contingency plans - the same plans that she advised Sammael to make for if ever Rand appeared on her doorstep.


We know this was not the case, because when she did learn of Rand finding her, she went for the no-plan hasty escape. She had no contingency for Rand appearing on her doorstep.

2. When Aran'gar arrives at her palace, she takes Delana and teaches her Compulsion.


This is wrong. Graendal has to ask Aran'gar whether Delana knows Compulsion. Clearly, she never taught her. Even more clearly, she did not have this prepared since Aran'gar arrived.

Graendal says she will not risk strength and skill, but Delana has neither, and will only know one advanced weave after some training. Graendal needs Delana for this purpose and starts setting up a proxy, well aware that she is going to throw Delana in front of the first sign of the Dragon Reborn.


This again didn't happen. I won't be so petty as to detract from Sidious' theory just because Graendal didn't speak the words he thought she might use, but I do have to point out that Graendal never planned this, and so never intended to use Delana for this purpose.

3. Rand sends in his messenger and Graendal figures out what is happening. She gets Delana to compel the man, while she and Aran'gar make plans.


Graendal did not figure out what was happening when Ramshalan arrives. She says so herself, admitting that "she'd been played" and that she only figured it out at the last second. She also wasn't making any plans with Aran'gar, obviously.

4. Aran'gar senses saidin, and she and Graendal Travel.They deliberately leave Delana behind to die. Graendal doesn't know that Rand will use balefire, but Aran'gar senses so much saidin that Graendal hopes that Rand will take any evidence of saidar as evidence that she was in the palace when he destroyed it by whatever means.


Obviously Graendal didn't take Aran'gar with her, nor did Aran'gar sensing saidin have anything to do with Graendal's actions.

5. The Compulsion is unravelled, but Graendal and Aran'gar are safe. The reason for Delana tagging along with Aran'gar is revealed, as she is sacrificed to perform a masterful ruse.


Aran'gar is not safe, nor was Delana intended as a ruse or brought for this reason.

He got the major point right - that Delana did the Compulsion, and that Graendal survived. In fact, if the scene had gone as Sidious suggested, I might be happier with it. The way it was written makes little sense.


The end result - Graendal's survival - was correct, but that is not sufficient for me to grant this theory credibility. I will accord him points for guessing that Delana would be sacrificed to cause the vanished Compulsion, but the core of Sidious' theory was that Graendal survived because she had planned for this. I argued then and would still argue that this is absurd, and the reality agrees: Graendal was caught completely off guard by Rand's attack. Only the use of heretofore unknown True Power abilities (and I don't think we even knew Graendal could access the True Power before Towers of Midnight, I was certainly under the assumption of Moridin's exclusivity) allowed her to survive.

Sidious' conclusion was correct, but his reasoning was not, so I cannot agree to validate his theory. Because it was all those who opposed his theory who were correct - Graendal did not anticipate Rand's assault, Graendal did not plan for it. And Graendal would not have survived it if not for abilities that were at the time of the reasoning unknown to us.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
This message last edited by Fanatic-Templar on 11/11/2010 at 04:25:27 AM
Reply to message
What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory? - 13/07/2010 09:00:05 AM 1970 Views
Too convulted to make any sense... - 13/07/2010 09:22:26 AM 930 Views
Too convulted...... - 14/07/2010 07:26:26 PM 1059 Views
The logic is rather... - 15/07/2010 05:09:30 PM 827 Views
What is the reason Delana is with Graendal? - 13/07/2010 09:31:36 AM 1004 Views
Indeed... - 13/07/2010 10:06:32 AM 917 Views
Re: Indeed... - 13/07/2010 10:10:43 AM 955 Views
That is wrong - 13/07/2010 10:19:32 AM 789 Views
Re: That is wrong - 13/07/2010 10:29:16 AM 879 Views
It's not at all... - 13/07/2010 10:35:49 AM 784 Views
Plus... - 13/07/2010 12:18:12 PM 726 Views
I agree with part and disagree with part. - 14/07/2010 06:39:36 PM 787 Views
exactly - 14/07/2010 06:43:14 PM 806 Views
Does the Compulsion fit Graendal? - 13/07/2010 03:40:36 PM 854 Views
sorry but no - 13/07/2010 09:49:13 AM 917 Views
Exactly - 13/07/2010 10:14:06 AM 805 Views
Yeah dacole provided powerful evidence *NM* - 13/07/2010 10:25:13 AM 446 Views
Actually... - 13/07/2010 10:30:24 AM 833 Views
Or, as with Moghedien. - 13/07/2010 02:35:44 PM 974 Views
It makes perfect sense. - 13/07/2010 02:33:09 PM 835 Views
This is actually the first thing that I thought of in that scene *NM* - 13/07/2010 04:08:48 PM 575 Views
Yes, Graendal completely outsmarted Rand. - 13/07/2010 05:56:30 PM 903 Views
I just think it's funny that people make fun of such a basic plan as convoluted. - 13/07/2010 06:33:44 PM 908 Views
Indeed... imagine how a truly complex plan would confound them - 13/07/2010 08:41:54 PM 817 Views
Re: Indeed... imagine how a truly complex plan would confound them - 13/07/2010 09:09:09 PM 883 Views
You draw too much attention to yourself, Mr Underwood *NM* - 14/07/2010 05:13:42 AM 548 Views
Ha, nice! *NM* - 14/07/2010 04:05:00 PM 442 Views
What are you talking about? I was agreeing with you, it's absurdly simple. - 13/07/2010 09:27:22 PM 884 Views
Huh - 14/07/2010 05:22:51 AM 856 Views
Why did the lair explode? - 14/07/2010 06:17:32 AM 801 Views
*NM* - 14/07/2010 01:58:17 PM 601 Views
While I generally agree with you...you missed an important detail. - 14/07/2010 02:06:31 PM 992 Views
What did Rand tell Ramshalan... - 14/07/2010 04:29:04 PM 708 Views
Re: What did Rand tell Ramshalan... - 14/07/2010 04:52:11 PM 809 Views
... - 14/07/2010 09:22:21 PM 995 Views
he doesn't have to read Rands mind - 14/07/2010 09:41:59 PM 753 Views
Provide a quote. - 15/07/2010 04:10:06 AM 890 Views
read the chapter - 10/08/2010 09:22:02 PM 714 Views
Right, that's why I asked. Because I know you can't. - 10/08/2010 10:00:14 PM 840 Views
sigh ... always so aggressive ... why you gotta hate - 11/08/2010 03:23:31 AM 924 Views
Was that what I asked for? - 11/08/2010 04:05:41 AM 684 Views
sorry misunderstood what you were looking for - 11/08/2010 04:50:17 PM 710 Views
Oh if that's what you want - 11/08/2010 04:45:19 PM 859 Views
why does it have to be a well thought out plan? - 14/07/2010 04:14:17 PM 724 Views
She would have to teach her pawn Compulsion. - 14/07/2010 04:30:12 PM 698 Views
No she'd only have to show Delana a weave to duplicate - 14/07/2010 04:48:24 PM 805 Views
Nonsense. - 14/07/2010 09:30:01 PM 849 Views
yet Sorilea, can duplicate Cadsuane's weaves after one quick glance - 14/07/2010 09:52:01 PM 852 Views
Which ones? - 15/07/2010 04:14:23 AM 745 Views
Re: Which ones? - 15/07/2010 05:25:28 AM 841 Views
Well. - 15/07/2010 06:53:29 AM 715 Views
Actually I think it's one of those things that make AS so stupid - 10/08/2010 09:36:43 PM 810 Views
the Sorilea moment is when they first meet Semirhage - 10/08/2010 09:32:26 PM 877 Views
Thanks for the quote. - 10/08/2010 10:02:36 PM 893 Views
Re: I just think it's funny that people make fun of such a basic plan as convoluted. - 14/07/2010 05:40:11 PM 730 Views
She's so smart, she knows Rand will bring along Nynaeve to check Delana's Compulsion - 13/07/2010 08:32:19 PM 744 Views
we've seen any number of times that a Channeler can make an exact copy of weaves - 14/07/2010 04:10:41 PM 848 Views
Ramshalan didn't know the plan as you claim - 14/07/2010 04:16:29 PM 667 Views
he knew enough to alert Graendal to the danger - 14/07/2010 04:50:26 PM 901 Views
No. Don't think so. - 13/07/2010 08:35:34 PM 720 Views
I so desperately want you to be right. - 14/07/2010 06:30:16 AM 887 Views
Graendal being alive would make more of a statement... - 14/07/2010 06:53:48 AM 808 Views
Re: Graendal being alive would make more of a statement... - 14/07/2010 07:10:49 AM 868 Views
Re: Graendal being alive would make more of a statement... - 15/07/2010 10:50:05 PM 777 Views
Yip - 14/07/2010 04:33:03 PM 783 Views
Lame. - 14/07/2010 10:44:47 AM 735 Views
Not really - 14/07/2010 04:15:38 PM 678 Views
she's dead, get over it *NM* - 14/07/2010 01:12:15 PM 487 Views
Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory? - 14/07/2010 05:44:38 PM 729 Views
Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory? - 14/07/2010 07:21:29 PM 818 Views
Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory? - 10/08/2010 09:12:17 PM 931 Views
Sounds about right. Wonder if he intends to try and get Callandor? *NM* - 13/08/2010 07:41:47 AM 275 Views
*shrug* Seems a bit complex to me... - 14/07/2010 07:17:49 PM 1018 Views
Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory? - 15/07/2010 04:38:09 PM 834 Views
Re: What about this little 'Graendal survived' theory? - 10/11/2010 04:09:41 AM 737 Views
Why? *Towers of Midnight spoilers* - 10/11/2010 04:41:11 AM 704 Views
Because he was right, that's why. - 11/11/2010 03:39:39 AM 718 Views
Not by my reckoning. *Still contains ToM spoilers* - 11/11/2010 04:22:59 AM 651 Views
No one ever gets every detail right - it's impossible - 11/11/2010 06:06:26 AM 942 Views
Yes, but I don't think this was a detail. *Still ToM spoilers.* - 11/11/2010 06:31:40 AM 805 Views
Re: Why? *Towers of Midnight spoilers* - 11/11/2010 04:12:38 AM 810 Views
Please try to maintain some decorum. *Also ToM spoilers* - 11/11/2010 04:45:08 AM 760 Views

Reply to Message