Active Users:1106 Time:23/11/2024 08:22:32 AM
and Demandred fought the Shadow for half the war... what's the point? Sidious Send a noteboard - 01/05/2010 09:20:00 PM
Everything anybody does has a reason, and by your reckoning that apparently means there is no one good in existence, making the entire point of the comparative meaningless.


By Cannoli's argument, you could take anyone and suggest that they weren't good. Lews Therin and Demandred probably did the same things every day, and just because Demandred became one of the Forsaken, it was for ego and pride, and Lews Therin was a true altruist. It's a nonsensical argument.


It is entirely possible that they were reversed, and that Demandred was a benevolent and altruistic individual while Lew Therin was ambitious and power-hungry, but his subsequent behavior and self-serving agenda argue the opposite, as do Lews Therin's actions suggest otherwise about HIS character. Certainly he would have been welcomed with open arms had he attempted to leave the sinking ship that was the cause of the Light, and yet he forewent those opportunities. The Forsaken recall that "there had been attempts to turn" him to the Shadow so it is not as if he was insensible of his opportunity, etiher. While it does not prove anything about their earlier character, their subsequent behavior of which we do have knowledge argues for the worse interpretation for Demandred and the better of Lews Therin. Being a politician is not by any stretch of the imagination an inherently good thing. We only think well of LTT because of his demonstrated heroism. Given the self-serving aspects of a political profession and the obvious rewards and gratifications, and Demandred's evident desire for ever more of those rewards and gratifications, the possibility that he was a good and virtuous individual cannot be taken seriously. There is no evidence of any such character in his history, and offering the existence his political career as evidence for any goodness on his part is a ludicrous ploy leaving you no room to talk about nonsensical arguments.


Except that I'm not using his history as a politician as evidence of goodness. I'm using the evidence that he was undoubtedly the second greatest man to come out of a Utopia. If LTT had never been born, Demandred would have been the leader against the Shadow, and we'd never have heard of the evil of Demandred. It's not useless hypothesizing - it's a flaw which was exploited in Barid Bel Medar and caused him to turn to the Shadow.

He's not unique. There is no evidence that Mesaana was anything but good at her job and aspiring as a citizen of the 2nd Age. Same with Asmodean, Sammael and Be'lal.

I agree with you that most of the Forsaken were evil long before the War of the Shadow, but you stated that all of the Forsaken had no evidence of any good nature prior to the War of Power. It's an unfair statement considering we've had no insight into their lives, so there is no proof. Therefore the fact that some of them seemed to be normal aspiring citizens who weren't murderers or criminals blows that theory out of the water.

You make it sound obvious but it isn't. It's like saying that the people of the 3rd Age who are part of the Light are all good e.g. Nynaeve, Mat etc... and you focus on their good points. And then you say that the darkfriends are all evil and focus on their bad points. As if Nynaeve has never shown moral ambiguity, and Ingtar or Sheriam were psychotic killers their whole lives and never did any good.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 01/05/2010 at 09:21:12 PM
Reply to message
Alll the incompetent Forsaken talk lately... - 29/04/2010 07:09:22 AM 1548 Views
Sammael? - 29/04/2010 08:07:24 AM 793 Views
Re: Sammael? - 29/04/2010 01:44:35 PM 633 Views
Re: Sammael? - 29/04/2010 02:50:07 PM 637 Views
Re: Sammael? - 29/04/2010 04:27:54 PM 706 Views
Re: Sammael? - 29/04/2010 05:35:03 PM 706 Views
Re: Sammael? - 29/04/2010 06:47:05 PM 552 Views
Sincerest apologies, the post should've been a reply... - 29/04/2010 06:52:23 PM 617 Views
Don't sweat it. It's not like we're overflowing with threads and need to cut down on the clutter. *NM* - 30/04/2010 01:52:37 AM 298 Views
Thanks for the support! =) *NM* - 01/05/2010 03:01:25 AM 258 Views
Nope, they deserve their bad rap for being Typical Villains of the Week including Gimmicks - 29/04/2010 02:48:47 PM 608 Views
I agree - 29/04/2010 02:56:55 PM 573 Views
Jordan didn't care in a 4 book series! - 29/04/2010 07:24:24 PM 682 Views
Name one bit of good nature to any of the AoL lives of the Forsaken. - 30/04/2010 01:49:53 AM 583 Views
What about Demandred? - 30/04/2010 05:12:55 AM 690 Views
D'oh! How come I didn't immediately think of a politician? Seriously? - 30/04/2010 12:45:35 PM 725 Views
What is your argument? - 30/04/2010 06:12:24 PM 600 Views
Indeed - 01/05/2010 09:35:06 AM 633 Views
Except LTT DID do good. You know, saving the world from the Dark One and all. He was good. QED - 01/05/2010 05:06:31 PM 565 Views
and Demandred fought the Shadow for half the war... what's the point? - 01/05/2010 09:20:00 PM 632 Views
You can do good without being good. It's mostly the system's fault (credit? ) - 01/05/2010 11:30:16 PM 589 Views
How do you judge people, if not by their actions? - 02/05/2010 06:29:16 AM 627 Views
Hair, taste in clothes, and sense of humor. Faile wins! *NM* - 02/05/2010 06:38:08 AM 257 Views
Faile has bad hair *NM* - 03/05/2010 05:06:23 AM 266 Views
To some extent, there was no evil since they lived in Utopia, - 30/04/2010 07:08:32 AM 632 Views
The WoT does NOT feature a "small set of characters" - 03/05/2010 12:06:56 AM 535 Views
I kinda thought most of those points were in what I already wrote - 03/05/2010 02:53:04 AM 508 Views
Re: Alll the incompetent Forsaken talk lately... - 30/04/2010 02:44:06 AM 565 Views
I agree with a few of your points - 30/04/2010 07:24:59 AM 625 Views
Re: I agree with a few of your points - 01/05/2010 01:13:03 AM 913 Views
someone recently posted audio to the Budapest? signing RJ did - 01/05/2010 03:00:56 AM 555 Views

Reply to Message