I call them both agnostic, but the former leans toward atheism while the latter has no lean.
Joel Send a noteboard - 05/03/2012 10:53:02 AM
"I believe there isn't a god, though of course it's possible I could be wrong since nobody knows everything. I consider it pretty unlikely though, and I'm going to live my life as though there's no god until I see some decent evidence to the contrary."
And if you call it "agnostic", then how do you differentiate it from this position?:
"I have no idea what to think about the existence of a god: maybe there is, maybe there ain't. I expect we'll never know for sure."
Essentially, you're insisting that you don't really believe something if you admit even a faint possibility that you might be wrong. I hear this a lot, and I think it stems from failure to understand that in religions, unswerving belief is seen as a good thing, whereas for scientists it's a bad thing.
And if you call it "agnostic", then how do you differentiate it from this position?:
"I have no idea what to think about the existence of a god: maybe there is, maybe there ain't. I expect we'll never know for sure."
Essentially, you're insisting that you don't really believe something if you admit even a faint possibility that you might be wrong. I hear this a lot, and I think it stems from failure to understand that in religions, unswerving belief is seen as a good thing, whereas for scientists it's a bad thing.
Like I said, it has to do with nothing but the difference between certainty and probability. It is the difference between knowing Schrödingers Cat is dead/alive, believing it is and having no position. Only the claims to knowledge represents firm statements; the beliefs absent certainty, like the absent belief, are only special cases of the general one: Uncertainty. Any degree of probability represents some uncertainty; only certainty represents certainty.
Claiming absolute certainty when none is impossible is very BAD for metaphysics, and physics remains ultimately just a special case of metaphysics. It is an empirical concrete metaphysics, and works quite well if we accept concrete empirical premises. Unfortunately, those premises are no more absolutely proven than any other (though a greater preponderance of evidence exists for them than nearly any other) and are practically useless in the real areas neither concrete nor empirical.
Unswerving belief (i.e. absolute certainty, especially absent absolute proof) is, as you say, bad for science. Atheism is such an unswerving belief; saying, "I believe there is no deity, and will live my life accordingly, but I might be wrong, and will reverse my position if (and only if) presented sufficient evidence of that," is agnosticism. That, and the impossibility of proving a negative, is why agnosticism is the rational position absent convincing evidence for a deity. There is a reason widespread erosion of religious belief did not instantly and automatically lead to widespread atheism: Because knowing my hand does not conceal a black pawn is not the same as knowing it DOES conceal a white one, or nothing; either is possible, as are many other possibilities beside those.
"Strong/weak" or "positive/negative" are far more sensible labels for agnosticism than for atheism. Agnosticism admits a gray scale atheism does not.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 05/03/2012 at 10:54:48 AM
Do you know the best way to anger an atheist?
28/02/2012 07:10:57 PM
- 1858 Views
Or, you could baptize one of them, posthumously.
28/02/2012 07:32:48 PM
- 1190 Views
I can't think of any reason for an atheist to be annoyed by that.
28/02/2012 11:08:44 PM
- 946 Views
Well, for starters, it's really effing rude.
28/02/2012 11:31:36 PM
- 986 Views
It is an act of love.
29/02/2012 12:34:03 AM
- 1010 Views
Everyone does it for that reason? (edits for clarity)
29/02/2012 10:27:02 AM
- 899 Views
I have some disturbing news for you...
29/02/2012 06:42:41 PM
- 947 Views
For anyone reading this: the guy above is wrong, and I am admitting that to you on his behalf, so
29/02/2012 07:15:38 PM
- 957 Views
Maybe without realizing it, you have articulated....
29/02/2012 07:24:13 PM
- 812 Views
I actually find that conversation quite interesting.
29/02/2012 08:18:35 PM
- 935 Views
Re: I actually find that conversation quite interesting.
29/02/2012 09:07:06 PM
- 957 Views
I cannot possibly agree more with these two paragraphs of yours...
29/02/2012 09:28:09 PM
- 969 Views
I find the Fall perhaps the most interesting part.
02/03/2012 09:05:29 AM
- 1331 Views
Re: I find the Fall perhaps the most interesting part.
02/03/2012 06:26:06 PM
- 1110 Views
There are 3 critical distinctions: 1) Ability to sin, 2) Awareness of sin and 3) Appreciation of sin
05/03/2012 04:08:36 AM
- 879 Views
It is not an act of love to defy the beliefs of a loved one.
29/02/2012 02:32:45 PM
- 1055 Views
Rape? That is ridiculous.
29/02/2012 05:26:13 PM
- 959 Views
It's a bit of hyperbole, but not too far from it, imo
29/02/2012 05:45:39 PM
- 990 Views
"Spiritual rape" might be going a bit far, but otherwise that sounds about right.
02/03/2012 08:06:48 AM
- 1020 Views
Isn't religion different than faith, though?
28/02/2012 07:44:07 PM
- 1015 Views
Yeah that's pretty much what I said
28/02/2012 08:21:56 PM
- 803 Views
that won't work on Buddists
28/02/2012 09:21:48 PM
- 953 Views
For some reason I always imagine Buddhists as the monk class on RPG games... *NM*
28/02/2012 10:13:27 PM
- 473 Views
That's always been my view of the issue. Half-assed non-religious types are just as obnoxious too.
28/02/2012 10:34:12 PM
- 1168 Views
Seems a got both a pat on the back and a scathing rebuke. I call that a good day
28/02/2012 11:57:45 PM
- 1237 Views
Best way to anger an atheist, by declaring all atheists are the same. *NM*
28/02/2012 10:38:51 PM
- 616 Views
Common error number 1: "Atheism isn't a lack of belief, but rather a belief that God doesn't exist."
28/02/2012 11:18:23 PM
- 1098 Views
Curiously, anger at statements of simple obvious facts is a hallmark of religious fundamentalism.
29/02/2012 10:27:29 AM
- 1038 Views
What you're doing there is defining "atheist" and "agnostic" in a way that suits you, but...
29/02/2012 11:50:27 AM
- 836 Views
What I am doing is using the terms as they were universally used until about the time I was born.
05/03/2012 01:11:21 AM
- 973 Views
So what do you call this position?:
05/03/2012 08:43:20 AM
- 929 Views
I call them both agnostic, but the former leans toward atheism while the latter has no lean.
05/03/2012 10:53:02 AM
- 983 Views
See, there you go again, defining atheism in such a way as to make it sound ridiculous.
05/03/2012 11:21:17 AM
- 807 Views
Well, is unswerving belief a good thing, or not?
05/03/2012 11:57:05 AM
- 1034 Views
What's happening
05/03/2012 02:24:41 PM
- 1016 Views
Conversationally, DKs use of "atheism" at the start of this convo is the only practical definition.
07/03/2012 03:10:18 AM
- 1323 Views
Oh really? The guy who was doing it to annoy people?
07/03/2012 09:53:38 PM
- 920 Views
The guy who was doing it to annoy atheists based on the terms technical and popular meaning, yes.
11/03/2012 04:04:36 AM
- 797 Views
Whatever.
12/03/2012 12:39:24 AM
- 1237 Views
I understand that as "I completely agree."
13/03/2012 12:11:18 AM
- 1074 Views
I have known very few people who "believe" their religion from rearing and actually understand it.
29/02/2012 12:08:01 PM
- 1165 Views
I thought that was "best way to make an atheist roll his/her eyes at you"? *NM*
29/02/2012 11:05:21 PM
- 566 Views