Active Users:1134 Time:22/11/2024 10:55:33 PM
I call them both agnostic, but the former leans toward atheism while the latter has no lean. Joel Send a noteboard - 05/03/2012 10:53:02 AM
"I believe there isn't a god, though of course it's possible I could be wrong since nobody knows everything. I consider it pretty unlikely though, and I'm going to live my life as though there's no god until I see some decent evidence to the contrary."

And if you call it "agnostic", then how do you differentiate it from this position?:

"I have no idea what to think about the existence of a god: maybe there is, maybe there ain't. I expect we'll never know for sure."

Essentially, you're insisting that you don't really believe something if you admit even a faint possibility that you might be wrong. I hear this a lot, and I think it stems from failure to understand that in religions, unswerving belief is seen as a good thing, whereas for scientists it's a bad thing.

Like I said, it has to do with nothing but the difference between certainty and probability. It is the difference between knowing Schrödingers Cat is dead/alive, believing it is and having no position. Only the claims to knowledge represents firm statements; the beliefs absent certainty, like the absent belief, are only special cases of the general one: Uncertainty. Any degree of probability represents some uncertainty; only certainty represents certainty.

Claiming absolute certainty when none is impossible is very BAD for metaphysics, and physics remains ultimately just a special case of metaphysics. It is an empirical concrete metaphysics, and works quite well if we accept concrete empirical premises. Unfortunately, those premises are no more absolutely proven than any other (though a greater preponderance of evidence exists for them than nearly any other) and are practically useless in the real areas neither concrete nor empirical.

Unswerving belief (i.e. absolute certainty, especially absent absolute proof) is, as you say, bad for science. Atheism is such an unswerving belief; saying, "I believe there is no deity, and will live my life accordingly, but I might be wrong, and will reverse my position if (and only if) presented sufficient evidence of that," is agnosticism. That, and the impossibility of proving a negative, is why agnosticism is the rational position absent convincing evidence for a deity. There is a reason widespread erosion of religious belief did not instantly and automatically lead to widespread atheism: Because knowing my hand does not conceal a black pawn is not the same as knowing it DOES conceal a white one, or nothing; either is possible, as are many other possibilities beside those.

"Strong/weak" or "positive/negative" are far more sensible labels for agnosticism than for atheism. Agnosticism admits a gray scale atheism does not.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 05/03/2012 at 10:54:48 AM
Reply to message
Do you know the best way to anger an atheist? - 28/02/2012 07:10:57 PM 1858 Views
Or, you could baptize one of them, posthumously. - 28/02/2012 07:32:48 PM 1190 Views
Ooo that is hilarious *NM* - 28/02/2012 08:22:19 PM 428 Views
I can't think of any reason for an atheist to be annoyed by that. - 28/02/2012 11:08:44 PM 946 Views
Well, for starters, it's really effing rude. - 28/02/2012 11:31:36 PM 986 Views
It is an act of love. - 29/02/2012 12:34:03 AM 1010 Views
Everyone does it for that reason? (edits for clarity) - 29/02/2012 10:27:02 AM 899 Views
I have some disturbing news for you... - 29/02/2012 06:42:41 PM 947 Views
For anyone reading this: the guy above is wrong, and I am admitting that to you on his behalf, so - 29/02/2012 07:15:38 PM 958 Views
Maybe without realizing it, you have articulated.... - 29/02/2012 07:24:13 PM 812 Views
I actually find that conversation quite interesting. - 29/02/2012 08:18:35 PM 935 Views
Re: I actually find that conversation quite interesting. - 29/02/2012 09:07:06 PM 958 Views
I cannot possibly agree more with these two paragraphs of yours... - 29/02/2012 09:28:09 PM 970 Views
I'm surprised to see some of this. - 01/03/2012 12:11:31 PM 824 Views
You said it was really effing rude. - 29/02/2012 08:18:40 PM 993 Views
I meant that the act of choosing for someone else - 29/02/2012 08:54:02 PM 885 Views
Question - 29/02/2012 07:58:32 PM 998 Views
No, I don't blame them or think they are fools. - 29/02/2012 08:41:13 PM 911 Views
It is not an act of love to defy the beliefs of a loved one. - 29/02/2012 02:32:45 PM 1055 Views
Rape? That is ridiculous. - 29/02/2012 05:26:13 PM 959 Views
It's a bit of hyperbole, but not too far from it, imo - 29/02/2012 05:45:39 PM 990 Views
You are trying your best to not understand. - 29/02/2012 07:12:57 PM 976 Views
I suspect that that is where a lot of the issue with it lies. - 02/03/2012 01:33:43 AM 1029 Views
one thing - 29/02/2012 06:25:45 PM 998 Views
Precisely *NM* - 29/02/2012 06:59:15 PM 474 Views
Bad example - 05/03/2012 05:06:21 AM 1047 Views
Why would they be angry about that? - 02/03/2012 01:23:56 AM 1116 Views
Denying people rights since it was written 3000 years ago? - 28/02/2012 07:44:02 PM 909 Views
Isn't religion different than faith, though? - 28/02/2012 07:44:07 PM 1015 Views
Yeah that's pretty much what I said - 28/02/2012 08:21:56 PM 803 Views
Only if I get to be Pope. - 28/02/2012 08:25:45 PM 918 Views
I love me my vices! Thanks Pope - 28/02/2012 10:14:27 PM 788 Views
Generally the same way you piss off anyone else - 28/02/2012 08:43:04 PM 931 Views
Great post. - 28/02/2012 09:18:38 PM 913 Views
I find that the best way is to smile. - 29/02/2012 06:23:50 AM 934 Views
Some answers - 28/02/2012 09:05:35 PM 881 Views
that won't work on Buddists - 28/02/2012 09:21:48 PM 953 Views
On the other hand ... - 28/02/2012 09:28:27 PM 792 Views
For some reason I always imagine Buddhists as the monk class on RPG games... *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:13:27 PM 473 Views
LOL same *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:31:38 PM 451 Views
Best way to anger an atheist, by declaring all atheists are the same. *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:38:51 PM 616 Views
Telling anyone what they actually believe will work. *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:51:56 PM 443 Views
This kind of works for many, doesn't it? - 29/02/2012 06:22:33 PM 814 Views
I'm an atheist, and I consider it to be my religion. *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:51:00 PM 426 Views
Common error number 1: "Atheism isn't a lack of belief, but rather a belief that God doesn't exist." - 28/02/2012 11:18:23 PM 1098 Views
I second that - 29/02/2012 03:46:15 AM 915 Views
Curiously, anger at statements of simple obvious facts is a hallmark of religious fundamentalism. - 29/02/2012 10:27:29 AM 1038 Views
What you're doing there is defining "atheist" and "agnostic" in a way that suits you, but... - 29/02/2012 11:50:27 AM 836 Views
What I am doing is using the terms as they were universally used until about the time I was born. - 05/03/2012 01:11:21 AM 973 Views
So what do you call this position?: - 05/03/2012 08:43:20 AM 929 Views
I call them both agnostic, but the former leans toward atheism while the latter has no lean. - 05/03/2012 10:53:02 AM 984 Views
See, there you go again, defining atheism in such a way as to make it sound ridiculous. - 05/03/2012 11:21:17 AM 807 Views
Well, is unswerving belief a good thing, or not? - 05/03/2012 11:57:05 AM 1034 Views
What's happening - 05/03/2012 02:24:41 PM 1016 Views
Conversationally, DKs use of "atheism" at the start of this convo is the only practical definition. - 07/03/2012 03:10:18 AM 1323 Views
Oh really? The guy who was doing it to annoy people? - 07/03/2012 09:53:38 PM 920 Views
The guy who was doing it to annoy atheists based on the terms technical and popular meaning, yes. - 11/03/2012 04:04:36 AM 797 Views
Whatever. - 12/03/2012 12:39:24 AM 1238 Views
*NM* - 12/03/2012 01:14:39 AM 447 Views
I understand that as "I completely agree." - 13/03/2012 12:11:18 AM 1075 Views
I saw it as.... - 13/03/2012 10:44:37 PM 832 Views
My browser does not like your gif. - 13/03/2012 11:32:06 PM 1087 Views
I have a few good quotes for this one. - 29/02/2012 03:29:22 PM 931 Views
I snerfled. *NM* - 29/02/2012 05:12:32 PM 462 Views
Re: That's it? *NM* - 01/03/2012 06:33:48 AM 519 Views
Re: Do you know the best way to anger an atheist? - 02/03/2012 01:47:03 AM 866 Views

Reply to Message