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The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power". Joel Send a noteboard - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
Since corporations are anathema to communism and nationalism nearly as much so (communism sees the the proletariat dictatorship and revolution, and the state as an obstacle, hence Marxs prediction and Lenins call for a global revolution) saying fascism, predicated on corporate power, is closer to the communism that abhors such power than to the capitalism that embraces it is (once again) factually inaccurate. Your statement reflects a partisan and deeply flawed understanding of political science. Since we're here, however, and everyone else wants to indulge my beloved tangents, I'll presume to instruct an elder:

I'm an ardent liberal and ABHOR communism. Lesson 1: Just because you're on the correct end of the political spectrum doesn't mean no one else on that end is reprehensible. In my early teens I believed Mao and Stalin (though not Lenin, he knew his poly sci) were simply evil men who made communism a vehicle for personal power without BELIEVING in it for a moment, but, fact is, it doesn't matter, because the absolutist nature of communism will produce the same totalitarian oppression and abuse even if begun by the most sincere and noble of leaders. From a pure poly sci perspective incremental socialism is eminently better because it avoids those excesses by allowing, nay, REQUIRING a robust capitalist element (we can call this Lesson 2 since core far right doctrine teaches that socialism abolishes private enterprise). From a purely historical perspective (which was the one on which Marx based the Communist Manifesto) incremental socialism has repeatedly proven Marx wrong because its incremental, democratic and PEACEFUL reforms have aborted any risk of the global communist revolution Marx said was inevitable. Hardcore communists really hate this, by the way, consider socialism little more than another "capitalist running dog" in the way of their glorious bloodbath.
Mein Kampf was written by a socialist.

The fact that Ms. Giffords played the typical liberal game of pumping up their base with the "they are crazy and they are after us" fear mongering really isn't relevant. She wasn't bothered by democrats using very similar imagery.

Being shot does make her an instant saint or prophet.

Calling it "national socialism" was a Trojan Horse directed at German leftists and no one on the left or right, or either side of the Atlantic, bought it for a second. Hitler got elected by burning the Reichstag just so he could accuse the left of treason (SOUND FAMILIAR? ) When the right fought the left in the Spanish Civil War it was fascists vs. communists, not Republicans vs. fascists and communists (ironically, Francos party called themselves "Republicans" but that was mere coincidence; it doesn't taint the GOP except to the extent some GOP members then supported Franco politically and financially). Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Tojo hated the left--ALL of it--with a passion even you can't imagine.

But none of that's relevant here except insofar as how much the far rights agenda has distored it's grasp of political science and historical fact because Loughner is neither right nor left, he's just a violent paranoid nut with a record of criminal activity and mental instability who still got a gun because background checks before buying one are no longer mandatory.

If you want to call Giffords statement a political game, that's fine, but the FACTS are

1) She said Palins imagery endangered her,

She said that even though her own party used similar images. Seems like she was a typical liberal.

I can't speak for Ms. Giffords; leading liberals has been likened to herding cats for a reason. However, while I happen to believe such imagery less common on the left, whether or not that's true I do know it's out there and I have consistently disavowed it. I would hope Ms. Giffords does the same, but I don't speak for her and honestly can't say.
2) She's been shot and

Since it had zero connection with Palin's imagery so far I would say she has not been proven correct.

At the very least it's connected in that Palin used an image involving a gun and Ms. Giffords mentioned it, then a gun was used in an attempt to kill her. That's two connections right there, even if coincidental; whether more exist is UNPROVEN EITHER WAY since Loughner refuses to say anything. However, as I've said repeatedly, the sheer volume of violent imagery and rhetoric coming from far right demagogues made it almost inevitable that some nut would shoot SOMEONE who'd mentioned an example of it, and that link would immediately be all over the airwaves. Hopefully there won't be more; more such events would hurt the demagogues politically, but the price is too high. There are more important things than winning elections. Really.
3) Palin says 2) makes 1) "blood libel".

If you want to accuse Giffords, go to her hospital room and do so--if you have that much guts and that little shame.

If Gifford comes out of the hospital room and makes the claim that Palin was at fault then I have no problem accusing her of slander. being shot does not make you saint. I have no problem criticizing the left wing nut job who got shot in the leg and then made death against a Tea Party member.

If I'm understanding that last sentence correctly, if someone got shot in the leg (in Tucson?) and then made a death threat against a Tea Party member I naturally condemn and repudiate that as well. If someone made a death threat against the person who shot them I'd still condemn, though understand, it if the shooter is in custody. If Ms. Giffords is in command of her faculties I'd be surprised if she doesn't have something to say when she recovers; it should be very interesting. Maybe Palin will remain adamant; after all, the Republicans lodged the charge of cowardly treason against a man who lost three limbs serving his country in Vietnam, and a life long civilian called another decorated Vietnam vet a coward on the floor of the US House, but both accusers remain in office, so GOP leaders seem capable of anything at this point.
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OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. - 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM 1991 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"? - 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM 853 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable. - 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM 1030 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but... - 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM 1075 Views
That's why I said, "popularized". - 16/01/2011 01:46:52 PM 1025 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already - 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM 1367 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread. - 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM 927 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either - 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM 929 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. - 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM 956 Views
Re: I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. - 16/01/2011 11:30:38 PM 854 Views
Oh please don't you start to - 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM 810 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before. - 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM 979 Views
it was used here and nobody commented - 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM 869 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here - 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM 921 Views
It's funny you should say that... - 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM 952 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that... - 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM 938 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry. - 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM 962 Views
A rallying cry is hardly illegal - 20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM 1015 Views
I never said it was. - 20/01/2011 06:59:39 PM 1145 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright. - 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM 794 Views
compared to the way similar terms are used? - 19/01/2011 06:58:02 PM 937 Views
I meant I hadn't seen it used in different contexts before. - 19/01/2011 07:35:00 PM 920 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. - 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM 1006 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. - 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM 1035 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her. - 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM 1173 Views
That means precisely nothing - 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM 871 Views
It means everything. - 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM 1141 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic - 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM 745 Views
There are two points: - 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM 934 Views
Re: It means everything. - 19/01/2011 05:55:02 PM 772 Views
That's simply illogical. - 20/01/2011 01:08:51 AM 1150 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument - 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM 1027 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic - 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM 970 Views
So I am a little confused on something... - 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM 1028 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this - 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM 1164 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly... - 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM 900 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. - 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM 908 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. - 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM 963 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically. - 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM 798 Views
No, they don't - 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM 985 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one. - 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM 1064 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said - 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM 914 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice) - 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM 951 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity - 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM 999 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice? - 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM 1060 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again* - 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM 884 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it. - 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM 882 Views
There is no point - 21/01/2011 12:22:30 AM 929 Views
If I had no point I wouldn't bother, but fair enough. - 21/01/2011 01:20:32 AM 1178 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book. - 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM 1200 Views
You're awesome at missing points, aren't you? - 16/01/2011 07:26:30 PM 944 Views
where is the accountability for those committing slander? - 17/01/2011 02:52:40 PM 853 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither. - 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM 901 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto - 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM 879 Views
That first line is says it all. - 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM 961 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist - 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM 1069 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power". - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM 952 Views
and that is supposed to mean something? - 20/01/2011 06:06:18 PM 990 Views
YOU are cherry picking. - 20/01/2011 07:50:21 PM 897 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central... - 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM 1155 Views
See my reply to Dragonsoul above. - 16/01/2011 07:30:40 PM 1004 Views
Yeah, your first was better - 16/01/2011 09:48:58 PM 815 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed. - 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM 878 Views
Pretty much. - 16/01/2011 11:44:35 PM 963 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM* - 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM 448 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM* - 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM 408 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah. - 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM 847 Views
OK Olberman when did I imply otherwise? *NM* - 19/01/2011 02:48:41 PM 459 Views
"Political offices are vandalized on a regular basis". - 20/01/2011 03:16:39 AM 1039 Views
Took you this long, huh? - 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM 800 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy - 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM 814 Views
I'm just curious. - 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM 791 Views
Re: I'm just curious. - 17/01/2011 03:28:04 PM 934 Views
I always said I'd do that after Bush was re-elected. - 18/01/2011 11:52:45 PM 814 Views
like I said a matter of faith - 17/01/2011 04:27:51 PM 805 Views
I find it interesting... - 17/01/2011 05:31:54 PM 954 Views
I mention her looks solely because... - 20/01/2011 02:30:42 PM 823 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ). - 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM 1007 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity - 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM 813 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs? - 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM 869 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you - 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM 818 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic. - 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM 924 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't - 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM 728 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that. - 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM 822 Views
only in your does the connection exisit - 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM 855 Views
No. - 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM 934 Views
dude wake up - 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM 1075 Views
So in your opinion... - 17/01/2011 05:27:58 PM 805 Views
How 'bout simply color coding them? - 18/01/2011 11:21:03 PM 853 Views
Why not just blame Giffords? - 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM 1151 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does. - 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM 970 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me. - 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM 991 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 19/01/2011 04:51:40 PM 497 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox - 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM 741 Views
You missed the point, obviously. - 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM 850 Views
so you are saying it is the same old RAFO - 19/01/2011 06:47:24 PM 907 Views
The thread has admittedly degenerated - 19/01/2011 07:02:12 PM 767 Views
Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM* - 19/01/2011 07:04:58 PM 478 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long. - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM 998 Views
Hey, now. I have to step in. - 20/01/2011 04:44:49 PM 1020 Views
I'm just saying a significant link can be demonstrated. - 20/01/2011 07:07:27 PM 1072 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. - 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM 1005 Views

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