The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power".
Joel Send a noteboard - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
Since corporations are anathema to communism and nationalism nearly as much so (communism sees the the proletariat dictatorship and revolution, and the state as an obstacle, hence Marxs prediction and Lenins call for a global revolution) saying fascism, predicated on corporate power, is closer to the communism that abhors such power than to the capitalism that embraces it is (once again) factually inaccurate. Your statement reflects a partisan and deeply flawed understanding of political science. Since we're here, however, and everyone else wants to indulge my beloved tangents, I'll presume to instruct an elder:
I'm an ardent liberal and ABHOR communism. Lesson 1: Just because you're on the correct end of the political spectrum doesn't mean no one else on that end is reprehensible. In my early teens I believed Mao and Stalin (though not Lenin, he knew his poly sci) were simply evil men who made communism a vehicle for personal power without BELIEVING in it for a moment, but, fact is, it doesn't matter, because the absolutist nature of communism will produce the same totalitarian oppression and abuse even if begun by the most sincere and noble of leaders. From a pure poly sci perspective incremental socialism is eminently better because it avoids those excesses by allowing, nay, REQUIRING a robust capitalist element (we can call this Lesson 2 since core far right doctrine teaches that socialism abolishes private enterprise). From a purely historical perspective (which was the one on which Marx based the Communist Manifesto) incremental socialism has repeatedly proven Marx wrong because its incremental, democratic and PEACEFUL reforms have aborted any risk of the global communist revolution Marx said was inevitable. Hardcore communists really hate this, by the way, consider socialism little more than another "capitalist running dog" in the way of their glorious bloodbath.
Calling it "national socialism" was a Trojan Horse directed at German leftists and no one on the left or right, or either side of the Atlantic, bought it for a second. Hitler got elected by burning the Reichstag just so he could accuse the left of treason (SOUND FAMILIAR? ) When the right fought the left in the Spanish Civil War it was fascists vs. communists, not Republicans vs. fascists and communists (ironically, Francos party called themselves "Republicans" but that was mere coincidence; it doesn't taint the GOP except to the extent some GOP members then supported Franco politically and financially). Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Tojo hated the left--ALL of it--with a passion even you can't imagine.
But none of that's relevant here except insofar as how much the far rights agenda has distored it's grasp of political science and historical fact because Loughner is neither right nor left, he's just a violent paranoid nut with a record of criminal activity and mental instability who still got a gun because background checks before buying one are no longer mandatory.
If you want to call Giffords statement a political game, that's fine, but the FACTS are
1) She said Palins imagery endangered her,
She said that even though her own party used similar images. Seems like she was a typical liberal.
I can't speak for Ms. Giffords; leading liberals has been likened to herding cats for a reason. However, while I happen to believe such imagery less common on the left, whether or not that's true I do know it's out there and I have consistently disavowed it. I would hope Ms. Giffords does the same, but I don't speak for her and honestly can't say.
Since it had zero connection with Palin's imagery so far I would say she has not been proven correct.
At the very least it's connected in that Palin used an image involving a gun and Ms. Giffords mentioned it, then a gun was used in an attempt to kill her. That's two connections right there, even if coincidental; whether more exist is UNPROVEN EITHER WAY since Loughner refuses to say anything. However, as I've said repeatedly, the sheer volume of violent imagery and rhetoric coming from far right demagogues made it almost inevitable that some nut would shoot SOMEONE who'd mentioned an example of it, and that link would immediately be all over the airwaves. Hopefully there won't be more; more such events would hurt the demagogues politically, but the price is too high. There are more important things than winning elections. Really.
If Gifford comes out of the hospital room and makes the claim that Palin was at fault then I have no problem accusing her of slander. being shot does not make you saint. I have no problem criticizing the left wing nut job who got shot in the leg and then made death against a Tea Party member.
If I'm understanding that last sentence correctly, if someone got shot in the leg (in Tucson?) and then made a death threat against a Tea Party member I naturally condemn and repudiate that as well. If someone made a death threat against the person who shot them I'd still condemn, though understand, it if the shooter is in custody. If Ms. Giffords is in command of her faculties I'd be surprised if she doesn't have something to say when she recovers; it should be very interesting. Maybe Palin will remain adamant; after all, the Republicans lodged the charge of cowardly treason against a man who lost three limbs serving his country in Vietnam, and a life long civilian called another decorated Vietnam vet a coward on the floor of the US House, but both accusers remain in office, so GOP leaders seem capable of anything at this point.
I'm an ardent liberal and ABHOR communism. Lesson 1: Just because you're on the correct end of the political spectrum doesn't mean no one else on that end is reprehensible. In my early teens I believed Mao and Stalin (though not Lenin, he knew his poly sci) were simply evil men who made communism a vehicle for personal power without BELIEVING in it for a moment, but, fact is, it doesn't matter, because the absolutist nature of communism will produce the same totalitarian oppression and abuse even if begun by the most sincere and noble of leaders. From a pure poly sci perspective incremental socialism is eminently better because it avoids those excesses by allowing, nay, REQUIRING a robust capitalist element (we can call this Lesson 2 since core far right doctrine teaches that socialism abolishes private enterprise). From a purely historical perspective (which was the one on which Marx based the Communist Manifesto) incremental socialism has repeatedly proven Marx wrong because its incremental, democratic and PEACEFUL reforms have aborted any risk of the global communist revolution Marx said was inevitable. Hardcore communists really hate this, by the way, consider socialism little more than another "capitalist running dog" in the way of their glorious bloodbath.
Mein Kampf was written by a socialist.
The fact that Ms. Giffords played the typical liberal game of pumping up their base with the "they are crazy and they are after us" fear mongering really isn't relevant. She wasn't bothered by democrats using very similar imagery.
Being shot does make her an instant saint or prophet.
The fact that Ms. Giffords played the typical liberal game of pumping up their base with the "they are crazy and they are after us" fear mongering really isn't relevant. She wasn't bothered by democrats using very similar imagery.
Being shot does make her an instant saint or prophet.
Calling it "national socialism" was a Trojan Horse directed at German leftists and no one on the left or right, or either side of the Atlantic, bought it for a second. Hitler got elected by burning the Reichstag just so he could accuse the left of treason (SOUND FAMILIAR? ) When the right fought the left in the Spanish Civil War it was fascists vs. communists, not Republicans vs. fascists and communists (ironically, Francos party called themselves "Republicans" but that was mere coincidence; it doesn't taint the GOP except to the extent some GOP members then supported Franco politically and financially). Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Tojo hated the left--ALL of it--with a passion even you can't imagine.
But none of that's relevant here except insofar as how much the far rights agenda has distored it's grasp of political science and historical fact because Loughner is neither right nor left, he's just a violent paranoid nut with a record of criminal activity and mental instability who still got a gun because background checks before buying one are no longer mandatory.
If you want to call Giffords statement a political game, that's fine, but the FACTS are
1) She said Palins imagery endangered her,
She said that even though her own party used similar images. Seems like she was a typical liberal.
I can't speak for Ms. Giffords; leading liberals has been likened to herding cats for a reason. However, while I happen to believe such imagery less common on the left, whether or not that's true I do know it's out there and I have consistently disavowed it. I would hope Ms. Giffords does the same, but I don't speak for her and honestly can't say.
2) She's been shot and
Since it had zero connection with Palin's imagery so far I would say she has not been proven correct.
At the very least it's connected in that Palin used an image involving a gun and Ms. Giffords mentioned it, then a gun was used in an attempt to kill her. That's two connections right there, even if coincidental; whether more exist is UNPROVEN EITHER WAY since Loughner refuses to say anything. However, as I've said repeatedly, the sheer volume of violent imagery and rhetoric coming from far right demagogues made it almost inevitable that some nut would shoot SOMEONE who'd mentioned an example of it, and that link would immediately be all over the airwaves. Hopefully there won't be more; more such events would hurt the demagogues politically, but the price is too high. There are more important things than winning elections. Really.
3) Palin says 2) makes 1) "blood libel".
If you want to accuse Giffords, go to her hospital room and do so--if you have that much guts and that little shame.
If you want to accuse Giffords, go to her hospital room and do so--if you have that much guts and that little shame.
If Gifford comes out of the hospital room and makes the claim that Palin was at fault then I have no problem accusing her of slander. being shot does not make you saint. I have no problem criticizing the left wing nut job who got shot in the leg and then made death against a Tea Party member.
If I'm understanding that last sentence correctly, if someone got shot in the leg (in Tucson?) and then made a death threat against a Tea Party member I naturally condemn and repudiate that as well. If someone made a death threat against the person who shot them I'd still condemn, though understand, it if the shooter is in custody. If Ms. Giffords is in command of her faculties I'd be surprised if she doesn't have something to say when she recovers; it should be very interesting. Maybe Palin will remain adamant; after all, the Republicans lodged the charge of cowardly treason against a man who lost three limbs serving his country in Vietnam, and a life long civilian called another decorated Vietnam vet a coward on the floor of the US House, but both accusers remain in office, so GOP leaders seem capable of anything at this point.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM
- 1989 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"?
16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM
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Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable.
16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM
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It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but...
16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM
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I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already
16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM
- 1366 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread.
16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM
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She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either
16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM
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I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it.
16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM
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Oh please don't you start to
17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM
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I for one hadn't noticed it before.
17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM
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it was used here and nobody commented
17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM
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LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here
17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM
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It's funny you should say that...
18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM
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Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin).
19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM
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I thought you were the real vicitim
19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM
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When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died.
19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM
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Re: It's funny you should say that...
19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM
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It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry.
20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM
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Oh, I noticed that one alright.
18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM
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but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means?
19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM
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I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely.
19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM
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The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either
17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM
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Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM
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Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him.
16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM
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Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her.
17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM
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That means precisely nothing
17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM
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It means everything.
18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM
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I'm trying to understand your logic
19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM
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There are two points:
19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM
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I don't agree, but I understand. *NM*
19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM
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Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable.
19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM
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I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it.
20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM
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the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument
19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM
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Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing.
20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM
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I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM*
20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM
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I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way.
20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM
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that is some twisted and bizarre logic
17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM
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Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel.
18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM
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yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin
19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM
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I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so.
20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM
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It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing
20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM
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I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin.
20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM
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so in other words you again missed the point
20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM
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Well, one of us did.
20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM
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so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"?
20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM
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I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin?
20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM
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So I am a little confused on something...
16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM
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Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this
16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM
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If I understand what you are saying correctly...
17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM
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I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM
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Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand.
17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM
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The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically.
18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM
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No, they don't
18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM
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Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one.
18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM
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You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said
19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM
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I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice)
20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM
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The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity
20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM
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More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice?
20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM
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really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens
20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM
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I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing.
20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM
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way to dodge the point again
20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM
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Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one?
20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM
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Your shifting your original premise, *again*
20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM
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No, you're simply missing the point of it.
20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM
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Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book.
16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM
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Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither.
16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM
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conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto
17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM
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That first line is says it all.
18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM
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Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist
19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM
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The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power".
20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM
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It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central...
16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM
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Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result.
16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM
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And I call bullshit
18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM
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If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face.
18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM
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So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin?
19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM
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don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM*
19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM
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No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do.
20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM
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Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM*
18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM
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Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed.
16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM
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Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM*
17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM
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I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know).
17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM
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politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM*
17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM
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She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah.
18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM
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Took you this long, huh?
17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM
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I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick.
18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM
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I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy
17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM
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I'm just curious.
17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM
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Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party.
18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM
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If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ).
18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM
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mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity
19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM
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A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs?
20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM
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so it is all a matter of faith for you
20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM
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No, it's fairly straight forward logic.
20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM
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sorry Joel but you haven't
20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM
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It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that.
20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM
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only in your does the connection exisit
20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM
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No.
20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM
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dude wake up
20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM
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Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations.
20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM
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Why not just blame Giffords?
17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM
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Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does.
18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM
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The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner
18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM
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At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues.
18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM
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0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right
19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM
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Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit
19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM
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No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics'
19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM
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Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I?
20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM
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no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state
20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM
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It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric.
20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM
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it was the national democrats
20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM
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Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC.
20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM
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The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue
19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM
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"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense.
20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM
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The irony of this thread is not lost on me.
19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM
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Bizarre thread for that Soapbox
19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM
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You missed the point, obviously.
19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM
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That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long.
19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM
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Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS.
22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM
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We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact
22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM
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