You are the one who refuses to accept that churches might wrongfully discriminate at all.
Because it's not possible under law. Law leaves private institutions free to do what they will, so long as what they do does not hurt people or their property. I'm not sure why you find that so difficut to accept, since everyone has pointed out to you that it is so, and Americans who know Constitutional matters have given you citations.
The real question here is not what churches ought to believe (frankly, I don't care) but what they ought to be allowed to do. I believe that banning gay marriage is discrimination. I believe this because sins are accepted in other parts of christianity and even embraced as something to be dealt with before god.
What they believe and what they do is inextricably linked. Churches do not do what they don't believe, and nor should they have to. Sins are not accepted. We acknowledge people commit sins, but we require that they try not to. Because we're not perfect, we continue to sin, but then we have to repent and ask for forgiveness.
What churches do you think are happy for people to continue sinning? That's another thing you refuse to answer.
Some, not all, churches do pass out condoms to young people, in the hopes that they will avoid pregnancy out of wedlock. Is this not a form of sanctioning premarital sex? At least, in the same sense that gay marriage would be?
Not all churches think pre-marital sex is wrong. You seem to think that the Christian religion is monolithic. It's very much not.
Some, not all, churches allow divorce. Does this not diminish wedding vows? Which are to be eternal before god. Is this not a form of sanctioning a sin?
Again, those churches that sanction divorce do not consider it to be a sin. Christianity is not monolithic.
If I'm grossly ignoring your points and refusing to listen, please enlighten me. But I would appreciate if you show me how my points are not valid.
I believe I just have.
And, please note that I have been referring to my church in my responses, not all churches. I know what I believe, what my church believes, and what that means we practice. That's what I can talk about. For the rest, I make assumptions. Well-grounded ones, mind you.
OK. First, private institutions cannot do whatever they want. The civil rights act outlines that discrimination based on race, gender, or ethnicity is illegal. Granted, sexual preference is not included there, the supreme court ruled that discrimination in private institutions is only permitted when the expressive message (or as I said, the essence of the church) of the institution is altered.
I understand that christianity is not monolithic, but I know for a fact that many churches claiming to take the bible literally engage in these practices. I can show you articles if you'd like. Not all churches as I said engage in these practices, but some do. And some of those churches do still believe that wedding vows are sacred, and premarital sex is a sin.
The difference is that they acknowledge that sin is a part of life. Something that we will continue to do, despite our best efforts. Now, maybe it's that we subconsciously don't try hard enough to alter our behavior or it REALLY is impossible to not sin, either way, people continue to sin and continue to ask forgiveness.
I recognize that there are some homosexuals who believe that what they are doing isn't wrong at all. Those would be the homosexuals who do not take the whole of the bible literally or those who think the volume of material in the bible dedicated to accepting outcasts and sinners outweighs the few lines condemning homosexuals. But I would also expect few of those homosexuals to want to be married in the church.
Some homosexuals, not an immense number, may want to marry under god. They may feel that what they are doing isn't the way god created things or how people were MEANT to be (note that I do NOT believe this in any way). So they still want to be married under the church, acknowledging that they may be sinning, but trying to be better people in spite of that. They may not be going about that in the best way. But not all of us go about reforming ourselves in the best ways possible either.
I see your points about the word of god saying homosexuality is a sin and that gay marriage is wrong. But the expressive message of christianity isn't altered in marrying two sinners that happen to be homosexual.
You must unlearn what you have learned.
Gay Marriage
12/08/2010 10:23:19 AM
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I disagree on the latter part
12/08/2010 12:04:15 PM
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I follow your point...
12/08/2010 12:14:17 PM
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Suspect you would find plenty of denominations that would argue with you rather strenuously.
12/08/2010 12:24:55 PM
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See, that's what I'm saying...
12/08/2010 07:37:26 PM
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You didn't read my post.
12/08/2010 09:10:21 PM
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Actually, you didn't read my post
12/08/2010 09:23:54 PM
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Um, you're wrong.
12/08/2010 09:37:13 PM
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Re: Um, you're wrong.
12/08/2010 09:44:17 PM
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Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. And no, he described it accurately. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:53:31 PM
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You're still wrong.
12/08/2010 09:54:55 PM
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Re: You're still wrong.
12/08/2010 09:58:26 PM
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Again, you are still wrong.
12/08/2010 10:04:42 PM
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Re: Again, you are still wrong.
12/08/2010 10:17:13 PM
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Wrong definition of "club"
12/08/2010 10:30:52 PM
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Re: Wrong definition of "club"
12/08/2010 10:40:55 PM
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Also
12/08/2010 10:02:44 PM
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And wrong again.
12/08/2010 10:08:24 PM
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Not so quick!
12/08/2010 10:21:31 PM
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Yes, so quick!
12/08/2010 10:32:13 PM
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Let's be reasonable here
12/08/2010 10:41:53 PM
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Why do you get to judge?
12/08/2010 10:48:57 PM
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I don't
12/08/2010 10:53:21 PM
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OK.
12/08/2010 10:58:22 PM
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Re: OK.
12/08/2010 11:03:50 PM
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Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
12/08/2010 11:14:03 PM
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Re: Here's the thing: your opinion seems to be informed by the Roman Catholic Faith.
12/08/2010 11:23:35 PM
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Then please stop.
12/08/2010 11:01:05 PM
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What's wrong with discussion?
12/08/2010 11:05:48 PM
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Discussion? Nothing. Your assertions about other people's views, something.
12/08/2010 11:09:48 PM
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What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
12/08/2010 10:12:54 PM
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Re: What, because the expressive message of scouting is anti-gay?
12/08/2010 10:23:36 PM
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Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
12/08/2010 10:36:48 PM
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Re: Well then that brings us back to my question, which you have yet to answer.
12/08/2010 10:46:22 PM
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Not entirely true either... or, well, true as far as Brown goes.
12/08/2010 10:08:42 PM
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Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
12/08/2010 09:38:33 PM
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Re: Actually, I did. And since everyone else told you you're wrong about that I didn't see any need
12/08/2010 09:55:05 PM
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Gah.
12/08/2010 09:59:45 PM
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What a mature response.
12/08/2010 10:11:00 PM
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I can't speak for Rebekah, but I don't think the issue is that your points are invalid per se.
12/08/2010 10:22:30 PM
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Um
12/08/2010 09:46:43 PM
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That's a very good question. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:49:05 PM
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It makes no sense
12/08/2010 04:29:24 PM
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Re: It makes no sense
12/08/2010 07:39:25 PM
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Re: It makes no sense
12/08/2010 07:41:02 PM
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Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
12/08/2010 09:08:53 PM
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Re: Yes, but while marrying two murderers does not ensure that they will continue to murder...
12/08/2010 09:42:21 PM
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What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
12/08/2010 09:45:33 PM
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Re: What other church sanctioned circumstances encourage continued sin?
13/08/2010 11:04:02 AM
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Wow, it's almost like an entire denomination believes that! *NM*
13/08/2010 03:41:07 PM
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13/08/2010 03:43:26 PM
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Yeah, that's the Roman Catholic basis against masturbation and contraception. *NM*
13/08/2010 04:12:00 PM
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Yes
13/08/2010 04:22:58 PM
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Dude....please at least have a working knowledge of the Bible before you spout off.
12/08/2010 10:47:13 PM
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secular marriage is decoupled from religious marriage
12/08/2010 02:50:43 PM
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Simple, require the legal and religious marriage to be performed separately.
12/08/2010 02:58:43 PM
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And they are, in fact, separate right now in the US. They're just called the same thing.
12/08/2010 03:29:26 PM
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It's not the same name that's confusing so much as the single ceremony. Or so it seems to me.
12/08/2010 03:37:20 PM
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I disagree. I think giving the legal institution the same name as the sacrament is the problem.
12/08/2010 03:59:43 PM
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What in the world would that accomplish?
12/08/2010 03:44:32 PM
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Provide some much-needed clarity, evidently.
12/08/2010 03:49:33 PM
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the problem is it would be changing a centuries old tradition..
12/08/2010 04:26:47 PM
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heheheheheheheHAHAHAHEHEHehehehehahheeh*cough*
12/08/2010 04:55:09 PM
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thats OK I am sure you will get over it
12/08/2010 05:22:08 PM
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Just guessing, but I think it was the "centuries old tradition" that set off the giggle fit.
12/08/2010 07:25:38 PM
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Really? I was hoping for something better
12/08/2010 10:06:00 PM
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So government recognition makes your religion meaningful?
12/08/2010 10:11:54 PM
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not my religion I'm agnostic
12/08/2010 10:34:40 PM
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I'm not far left, thank you very much. *NM*
12/08/2010 10:20:31 PM
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no but your are European and that slants your views *NM*
12/08/2010 10:36:01 PM
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Simples
12/08/2010 09:30:31 PM
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there are about 140 post ranging from boyscouts to infant babtism
12/08/2010 10:57:46 PM
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So.
14/08/2010 01:27:59 AM
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sorry I responded I forgot what a tool you are. my bad
14/08/2010 02:48:57 AM
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You spout some utter gibberish then dish out insults when called on it? Very funny
15/08/2010 12:47:04 PM
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Agreed *NM*
12/08/2010 03:45:04 PM
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I love you, Camilla
12/08/2010 04:02:15 PM
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Re: I love you, Camilla
12/08/2010 04:04:10 PM
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A couple of things
12/08/2010 12:58:09 PM
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there is major flaw in your argument
12/08/2010 03:31:45 PM
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Re: there is major flaw in your argument
12/08/2010 04:01:32 PM
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I should clarify that I support gay marriage
12/08/2010 05:20:36 PM
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One point about Prop. 8
12/08/2010 07:38:55 PM
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I know that is the commonl;y held belief but I thinkit is wrong
12/08/2010 10:32:58 PM
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Religious institutions, though, pushed hard to pass it.
12/08/2010 10:42:33 PM
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that doesn’t translate into people voting for religious reasons
12/08/2010 11:19:48 PM
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Bigotry and Fear that are supported and encouraged by religious institutions.
12/08/2010 11:32:30 PM
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there are major flaws in your argument
12/08/2010 07:51:52 PM
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Women can't be priests in the Catholic church.
12/08/2010 08:00:24 PM
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Forcing religious institutions to marry gay couples is hideously unconstitutional.
12/08/2010 04:18:59 PM
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You are absolutely wrong
12/08/2010 07:57:19 PM
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Your arguments are so specious and stupid I don't know where to begin.
13/08/2010 05:04:17 AM
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Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 07:11:15 PM
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Because "homophobic", like "xenophobic", has shifted a bit in meaning...
12/08/2010 07:33:56 PM
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Because your reasons for being against gay marriage are so specious *NM*
12/08/2010 07:59:42 PM
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I particularly enjoy the implied assumption that your a good enough judge of my motivations. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:24:14 PM
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Re: Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 08:04:24 PM
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+1
12/08/2010 08:06:19 PM
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Stop with the pile on Camilla.
12/08/2010 09:22:35 PM
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You would have said nothing if I had just said "agreed"
12/08/2010 09:27:33 PM
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Which speaks highly of you....
12/08/2010 09:36:30 PM
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This is being very petty. *NM*
12/08/2010 09:41:26 PM
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As opposed to a snarky +1 comment? *NM*
12/08/2010 09:45:02 PM
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It's not snarky.
12/08/2010 09:47:47 PM
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Its a +1 shorthand comment...
12/08/2010 09:52:04 PM
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Wow. Those two characters allowed you to read Camilla's motivations?
12/08/2010 09:54:25 PM
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Re: Why do people equate....
12/08/2010 09:13:07 PM
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you are exactly why the state needs to make a clear seperation between the secular and religious
12/08/2010 09:33:22 PM
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Ok, so if the state does then...
12/08/2010 09:44:31 PM
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No, marriage started because of property.
12/08/2010 09:59:14 PM
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So then two things come to mind...
12/08/2010 10:04:39 PM
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Only two?
12/08/2010 10:27:08 PM
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That's a little difficult to do
13/08/2010 03:19:32 PM
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Re: That's a little difficult to do
13/08/2010 03:30:14 PM
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yes but about half of the old testament deals with protecting those rights
13/08/2010 05:16:09 PM
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The relationship between religion and rain go even farther back...
13/08/2010 06:15:32 PM
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Actually, I agree with that
12/08/2010 10:01:37 PM
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See, what I don't get is why gay people care about
12/08/2010 08:18:45 PM
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It's mostly about getting married in the eyes of the state.
12/08/2010 08:42:52 PM
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I'm fairly sure Jonte was referring only to the "churches have to accept gay marriages" bit. *NM*
12/08/2010 08:44:52 PM
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Starting again
12/08/2010 08:23:08 PM
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Not at all
12/08/2010 10:58:45 PM
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Re: Not at all
13/08/2010 09:14:48 AM
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Agreed *NM*
13/08/2010 10:21:06 AM
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Oh dear
13/08/2010 10:30:45 AM
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I suppose you also think that religious Pacifists should be eligible for the draft?
12/08/2010 08:42:21 PM
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