How much would it change the debate if it was nurture, really?
Legolas Send a noteboard - 05/08/2010 09:48:22 PM
You mentioned race and gender as being factors upon which people are differentiated. Those are factors which they can neither control nor have a choice over. Sexual preference, much as you stated, is just that....a preference. There is no proven genetic component which triggers homosexual behavior. On the contrary, it seems to be much more of a nurture component which changes the debate completely.
There are strong indications that there are genetic components, but okay, I admit I haven't seen rock solid proof yet either. But even if it is purely nurture, how does that change the debate completely? It's not something people can control, or have a choice over, regardless of whether it's genetic or a result of nurture somehow.
Certainly it's a choice to engage in sexual acts of a homosexual nature, precisely like it's a choice to engage in sexual acts of a heterosexual nature. In that sense, obviously people do have control over their sex life. But one doesn't control who one feels attracted to, or who one falls in love with. As is explained rather well in Judge Walker's opinion, this was less relevant back in the day when marriages of convenience were standard, and the primary goal of marriage was to form an economical unit, if at all possible with offspring, in which a certain labour division existed between men and women. It made sense for society to expect gay men and women to get married to someone of the opposite sex (or else to remain alone, in a role requiring celibacy or simply as life-long bachelor/old spinster), and to either suppress their sexual orientation or keep their actual romantic life hidden from the public eye. That's really not the case anymore. The purpose of marriage has changed, societal expectations have changed. There's absolutely no reason anymore for gay men and women to marry someone of the opposite sex. While the current view of marriage as being primarily a romantic matter, and a partnership of equals in which labour is divided in whichever way the spouses see fit, has made it entirely relevant to gay couples, and so they want it too. Makes perfect sense. And the arguments to keep it from them are based mostly on a religious view dictating that homosexuality is wrong and that apparently the religious should force their views on society. Fortunately there are also religious people who espouse the first belief while rejecting the second.
Ultimately, I think that the debate actually centers around the thought that society, by and large, should consider a homosexual partnership as valid and normal. There is a majority of people in California who disagree (for whatever reason). This isn't about rights, as none of us has a right to get married. This isn't so much about money or benefits, as none of us has a right to those either. There are all sorts of provisions in government which state "if you are in this situation, you get this benefit". If you don't qualify, you don't get it. Instead, this entire debate (in my thinking anyway) is about one aspect of American culture saying "this lifestyle is as normal as yours and you will accept that."
How so? How does the legalization of gay marriage in any way inconvenience people who disapprove of homosexuality? How does it in any way hinder their First Amendment rights of openly disapproving of homosexuality? It should be rather clear that trying to force any church to give its blessing to gay unions when that church doesn't want to, would be monumentally stupid, would be a blatant violation of the Constitution, and would never fly. And it's not like legalizing gay marriage is going to force them to have more contact with gay couples (okay, unless they happen to work for the county handing out marriage licenses...) or with homosexuality in general.
On the other side of the debate, a point that for some strange reason religious conservatives always seem to ignore: if they find marriage preferable above "living in sin" for straight couples, then why exactly is it that they don't think the same for gay couples? Sure, they disapprove of gay sex in general, but surely gay sex within a marriage is better than gay sex outside a marriage, even to those who find both abhorrent. It's not like banning gay marriage will stop any gay person from being gay or from having sex, after all.
There are many who would think "No it isn't, and no I won't." Who are you, or more specifically a judge, to force someone to accept their opinion as fact? Again...this isn't about race or gender...its about an individual's conscious decision on who to love.
When was the last time you made a conscious decision on who to love? And how well did that work out for you?
Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional
04/08/2010 10:40:50 PM
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Good news, but as the article says, it'll go all the way to the SC.
04/08/2010 10:55:58 PM
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So then is that how we do it?
04/08/2010 11:01:19 PM
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Of course.
04/08/2010 11:04:59 PM
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His point was
04/08/2010 11:40:14 PM
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Yeah but: What Ghavrel said below *NM*
05/08/2010 08:01:02 AM
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And again...
05/08/2010 06:08:56 PM
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To quote my property professor: "Can I make you think like a Californian?"
05/08/2010 06:39:48 PM
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I'm not the one who came up with the referendum system, you do realize.
04/08/2010 11:11:13 PM
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The referendum system, in my opinion, has been a failure, especially in CA.
04/08/2010 11:46:21 PM
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democracy has been a failure in CA.
05/08/2010 02:42:21 PM
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No. It just shows the problems of a crazy electorate.
05/08/2010 03:29:21 PM
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we vote fro way to much crap in general
05/08/2010 02:41:19 PM
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Yes, you still have to abide by the Constitution, even if a lot of people don't like it. *NM*
05/08/2010 12:07:44 AM
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Amend the Constitution to alter the Fourteenth Amendment if you don't like it. *NM*
05/08/2010 01:09:51 AM
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just a devil's advocate position here, but....
05/08/2010 04:23:43 AM
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Marriage is either an economic status regulated by law or a religious institution.
05/08/2010 05:13:17 AM
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There are certain things that should not be decided by a vote...
05/08/2010 02:02:45 AM
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I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular.
05/08/2010 02:17:24 AM
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Re: I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular.
05/08/2010 10:46:54 AM
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I understand it.
05/08/2010 03:06:40 PM
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I know you don't support proposition 8
05/08/2010 03:29:34 PM
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05/08/2010 03:34:01 PM
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But that is just simplistic and silly to complain about when it is a long standing possibility
05/08/2010 03:46:59 PM
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Oh, ees it?
05/08/2010 04:07:39 PM
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Well they knew the rules before they started the whole thing
05/08/2010 04:12:33 PM
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Why would you complain if you won?
05/08/2010 04:15:20 PM
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You could recognise that you won by the system working in a way you don't like?
05/08/2010 04:23:58 PM
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I'm sure that happens, in general.
06/08/2010 02:43:18 PM
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It seems to happen a lot nowadays
06/08/2010 03:06:33 PM
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It's so weird that you feel differently - there is only room for one opinion here!
06/08/2010 03:41:52 PM
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instead it should be decided by judges who answer to no one? *NM*
05/08/2010 07:12:59 AM
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The same judges who upheld our private right to bear arms.
05/08/2010 02:09:07 PM
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not when judges stop using the Constitution
05/08/2010 02:30:51 PM
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Sexual preference is not the right being protected.
05/08/2010 03:22:04 PM
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I know that the 14th amendment is routinely used in ways it was never intended.
05/08/2010 05:25:07 PM
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I realize that, but it is ultimately a good thing.
05/08/2010 05:31:19 PM
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let's take away the citizenship of all black people if that's the way you think
05/08/2010 09:06:23 PM
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Come now lets not be stupid
06/08/2010 05:31:18 PM
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sorry but your statement was completely ignorant.
06/08/2010 07:27:09 PM
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I will talk as soon as you stop spouting stupid rhetoric and say something relevant
06/08/2010 07:54:09 PM
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Let's just be clear about which amendment is which.
05/08/2010 11:50:57 PM
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but that still ignores intent and expands the law in ways not intnented when it created
06/08/2010 04:53:43 AM
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Yes, no, no, and no.
06/08/2010 05:29:09 AM
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there are serious flaws in your thinking here
06/08/2010 06:18:13 PM
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Your assertions continue to lack support.
06/08/2010 07:23:17 PM
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not all you just refuse to see things you disagree with
06/08/2010 08:36:32 PM
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...said the pot to the kettle
06/08/2010 09:17:28 PM
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yes but a shiny stainless steel pot
09/08/2010 11:21:33 PM
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You continue to be wrong about history and the role of courts.
10/08/2010 01:05:39 AM
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If he's wrong, a lot of law scholars and Supreme Court Justices are wrong.
10/08/2010 01:44:05 AM
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Brown vs. Board of Education, 'nuff said. *NM*
10/08/2010 04:32:37 AM
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Actually, that only proves his point, if I understand correctly. *NM*
10/08/2010 11:11:19 AM
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part oif the problem appears to be you completely missing the point
10/08/2010 01:23:19 PM
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There's a simple way to determine the degree to which that opinion is objective or subjective...
06/08/2010 09:32:21 PM
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Since when is marriage a right? *NM*
05/08/2010 04:11:16 PM
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it may not be a "right"...
05/08/2010 04:22:44 PM
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This is where the debate comes into play....
05/08/2010 05:04:08 PM
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How much would it change the debate if it was nurture, really?
05/08/2010 09:48:22 PM
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It's a benefit that is being extended selectively to one set of the populace.
05/08/2010 04:52:52 PM
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Hey, I'm single....
05/08/2010 05:05:41 PM
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That's a specious argument and you know it.
05/08/2010 05:13:17 PM
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A homosexual has every opportunity as well.....
05/08/2010 05:23:56 PM
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Oh quit the bullshit already.
05/08/2010 05:29:15 PM
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Sorry, but what a nonsense.
05/08/2010 09:27:17 PM
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hey that's it, jens! you solved the WHOLE PROBLEM!!!
05/08/2010 11:24:29 PM
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ON TO WORLD HUNGER!
06/08/2010 07:59:51 AM
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LET THEM HAVE CAEK. *NM*
06/08/2010 02:29:56 PM
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Are you sure it's wise to feed people on a lie? *NM*
06/08/2010 02:34:26 PM
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People are fed lies all the time
06/08/2010 09:30:37 PM
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Quite so, but I don't think it's commonly a mainstay of their diet *NM*
06/08/2010 09:50:33 PM
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It is the only thing which is abundant enough for everyone to have some... *NM*
06/08/2010 10:01:44 PM
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I invite you to read the judge's conclusions, linked again inside.
05/08/2010 11:43:44 PM
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Since 1948
06/08/2010 04:01:02 AM
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gah. can. only. see. typo. *NM*
06/08/2010 03:43:21 PM
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I don't see any typo... *NM*
06/08/2010 04:07:18 PM
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I agree
05/08/2010 07:22:17 AM
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And Civil Rights lost the Democrats the South.
05/08/2010 03:44:56 PM
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but it was done by congress passing laws and the president signing those laws
05/08/2010 04:20:19 PM
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I was under the impression that the supreme court had a role in it
05/08/2010 04:31:51 PM
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but the court was not over turning the laws passed by congress
05/08/2010 05:11:06 PM
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No, like in this case, isn't it?
05/08/2010 05:24:19 PM
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I would say that is another case of judicial activism and shows the danger of the practice
05/08/2010 05:43:02 PM
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Hard to believe it's the same governor who said "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman." *NM*
04/08/2010 11:05:45 PM
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Link to the full court order inside:
04/08/2010 11:43:29 PM
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The judge quoting Scalia in favour of gay marriage is fairly amusing.
04/08/2010 11:50:47 PM
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What page was that on?
05/08/2010 11:25:49 AM
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Nah, it was way above page 109, in the findings of fact somewhere.
05/08/2010 12:37:48 PM
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Oh, that is brilliant.
05/08/2010 01:12:21 PM
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Pretty much.
05/08/2010 01:44:22 PM
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I've always wondered what basis there is for banning necrophilia if "it's disgusting" is invalid.
05/08/2010 01:51:19 PM
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because you cannot give consent when you are dead?
05/08/2010 03:04:46 PM
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what if you give consent while you are still alive?
05/08/2010 03:21:59 PM
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Is it then illegal?
05/08/2010 03:23:46 PM
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given I imagine the pro-necrophilia lobby isn't strong in numbers or influence
05/08/2010 03:33:11 PM
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Re: given I imagine the pro-necrophilia lobby isn't strong in numbers or influence
05/08/2010 03:34:57 PM
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I would think it would be illegal even then
05/08/2010 03:34:31 PM
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Wikipedia to the rescue!
05/08/2010 04:20:15 PM
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you would hope the other states would cover it under improper treatmentof human remains
05/08/2010 07:38:59 PM
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A dead body is just an object, not a person with rights.
05/08/2010 03:27:08 PM
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Yes, but
06/08/2010 08:42:05 AM
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Absolutely not.
06/08/2010 03:21:14 PM
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not to mention necrophilia has a large potential to be hazardous to health.
06/08/2010 09:42:43 PM
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Irrelevant decision.....this was heading to SCOTUS from day 1 *NM*
05/08/2010 12:53:26 AM
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