Active Users:1122 Time:14/11/2024 06:21:33 AM
How much would it change the debate if it was nurture, really? Legolas Send a noteboard - 05/08/2010 09:48:22 PM
You mentioned race and gender as being factors upon which people are differentiated. Those are factors which they can neither control nor have a choice over. Sexual preference, much as you stated, is just that....a preference. There is no proven genetic component which triggers homosexual behavior. On the contrary, it seems to be much more of a nurture component which changes the debate completely.

There are strong indications that there are genetic components, but okay, I admit I haven't seen rock solid proof yet either. But even if it is purely nurture, how does that change the debate completely? It's not something people can control, or have a choice over, regardless of whether it's genetic or a result of nurture somehow.

Certainly it's a choice to engage in sexual acts of a homosexual nature, precisely like it's a choice to engage in sexual acts of a heterosexual nature. In that sense, obviously people do have control over their sex life. But one doesn't control who one feels attracted to, or who one falls in love with. As is explained rather well in Judge Walker's opinion, this was less relevant back in the day when marriages of convenience were standard, and the primary goal of marriage was to form an economical unit, if at all possible with offspring, in which a certain labour division existed between men and women. It made sense for society to expect gay men and women to get married to someone of the opposite sex (or else to remain alone, in a role requiring celibacy or simply as life-long bachelor/old spinster), and to either suppress their sexual orientation or keep their actual romantic life hidden from the public eye. That's really not the case anymore. The purpose of marriage has changed, societal expectations have changed. There's absolutely no reason anymore for gay men and women to marry someone of the opposite sex. While the current view of marriage as being primarily a romantic matter, and a partnership of equals in which labour is divided in whichever way the spouses see fit, has made it entirely relevant to gay couples, and so they want it too. Makes perfect sense. And the arguments to keep it from them are based mostly on a religious view dictating that homosexuality is wrong and that apparently the religious should force their views on society. Fortunately there are also religious people who espouse the first belief while rejecting the second.
Ultimately, I think that the debate actually centers around the thought that society, by and large, should consider a homosexual partnership as valid and normal. There is a majority of people in California who disagree (for whatever reason). This isn't about rights, as none of us has a right to get married. This isn't so much about money or benefits, as none of us has a right to those either. There are all sorts of provisions in government which state "if you are in this situation, you get this benefit". If you don't qualify, you don't get it. Instead, this entire debate (in my thinking anyway) is about one aspect of American culture saying "this lifestyle is as normal as yours and you will accept that."

How so? How does the legalization of gay marriage in any way inconvenience people who disapprove of homosexuality? How does it in any way hinder their First Amendment rights of openly disapproving of homosexuality? It should be rather clear that trying to force any church to give its blessing to gay unions when that church doesn't want to, would be monumentally stupid, would be a blatant violation of the Constitution, and would never fly. And it's not like legalizing gay marriage is going to force them to have more contact with gay couples (okay, unless they happen to work for the county handing out marriage licenses...) or with homosexuality in general.

On the other side of the debate, a point that for some strange reason religious conservatives always seem to ignore: if they find marriage preferable above "living in sin" for straight couples, then why exactly is it that they don't think the same for gay couples? Sure, they disapprove of gay sex in general, but surely gay sex within a marriage is better than gay sex outside a marriage, even to those who find both abhorrent. It's not like banning gay marriage will stop any gay person from being gay or from having sex, after all.

There are many who would think "No it isn't, and no I won't." Who are you, or more specifically a judge, to force someone to accept their opinion as fact? Again...this isn't about race or gender...its about an individual's conscious decision on who to love.


When was the last time you made a conscious decision on who to love? And how well did that work out for you?
Reply to message
Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional - 04/08/2010 10:40:50 PM 1366 Views
Thank God. *NM* - 04/08/2010 10:52:30 PM 382 Views
Amen. *NM* - 05/08/2010 02:09:24 AM 438 Views
Good news, but as the article says, it'll go all the way to the SC. - 04/08/2010 10:55:58 PM 714 Views
So then is that how we do it? - 04/08/2010 11:01:19 PM 839 Views
Of course. - 04/08/2010 11:04:59 PM 748 Views
His point was - 04/08/2010 11:40:14 PM 894 Views
Yeah but: What Ghavrel said below *NM* - 05/08/2010 08:01:02 AM 433 Views
And again... - 05/08/2010 06:08:56 PM 595 Views
well that is sort of the idea of how democracy works - 04/08/2010 11:06:57 PM 729 Views
I'm not the one who came up with the referendum system, you do realize. - 04/08/2010 11:11:13 PM 738 Views
The referendum system, in my opinion, has been a failure, especially in CA. - 04/08/2010 11:46:21 PM 822 Views
democracy has been a failure in CA. - 05/08/2010 02:42:21 PM 609 Views
No. It just shows the problems of a crazy electorate. - 05/08/2010 03:29:21 PM 724 Views
I think you made my point *NM* - 05/08/2010 03:35:00 PM 401 Views
About Californians being crazy, yes. *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:53:32 PM 375 Views
we vote fro way to much crap in general - 05/08/2010 02:41:19 PM 668 Views
Yeah, I agree. - 05/08/2010 04:11:34 PM 661 Views
my one recent dealing with our criminal justice - 05/08/2010 04:25:30 PM 699 Views
There are certain things that should not be decided by a vote... - 05/08/2010 02:02:45 AM 733 Views
I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular. - 05/08/2010 02:17:24 AM 789 Views
Re: I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular. - 05/08/2010 10:46:54 AM 779 Views
I understand it. - 05/08/2010 03:06:40 PM 762 Views
I know you don't support proposition 8 - 05/08/2010 03:29:34 PM 749 Views
- 05/08/2010 03:34:01 PM 788 Views
But that is just simplistic and silly to complain about when it is a long standing possibility - 05/08/2010 03:46:59 PM 669 Views
Oh, ees it? - 05/08/2010 04:07:39 PM 810 Views
Well they knew the rules before they started the whole thing - 05/08/2010 04:12:33 PM 650 Views
Why would you complain if you won? - 05/08/2010 04:15:20 PM 740 Views
You could recognise that you won by the system working in a way you don't like? - 05/08/2010 04:23:58 PM 620 Views
I'm sure that happens, in general. - 06/08/2010 02:43:18 PM 605 Views
It seems to happen a lot nowadays - 06/08/2010 03:06:33 PM 639 Views
instead it should be decided by judges who answer to no one? *NM* - 05/08/2010 07:12:59 AM 389 Views
The same judges who upheld our private right to bear arms. - 05/08/2010 02:09:07 PM 766 Views
not when judges stop using the Constitution - 05/08/2010 02:30:51 PM 741 Views
Sexual preference is not the right being protected. - 05/08/2010 03:22:04 PM 812 Views
I know that the 14th amendment is routinely used in ways it was never intended. - 05/08/2010 05:25:07 PM 722 Views
I realize that, but it is ultimately a good thing. - 05/08/2010 05:31:19 PM 794 Views
I am really on the fence a bit on the whole issue - 05/08/2010 06:00:59 PM 737 Views
I generally agree with you. - 05/08/2010 06:33:56 PM 752 Views
let's take away the citizenship of all black people if that's the way you think - 05/08/2010 09:06:23 PM 652 Views
Come now lets not be stupid - 06/08/2010 05:31:18 PM 617 Views
sorry but your statement was completely ignorant. - 06/08/2010 07:27:09 PM 734 Views
I will talk as soon as you stop spouting stupid rhetoric and say something relevant - 06/08/2010 07:54:09 PM 700 Views
bullshit. you will personally attack me no matter what i say. - 07/08/2010 02:04:04 PM 746 Views
Let's just be clear about which amendment is which. - 05/08/2010 11:50:57 PM 618 Views
but that still ignores intent and expands the law in ways not intnented when it created - 06/08/2010 04:53:43 AM 677 Views
Yes, no, no, and no. - 06/08/2010 05:29:09 AM 708 Views
there are serious flaws in your thinking here - 06/08/2010 06:18:13 PM 792 Views
Your assertions continue to lack support. - 06/08/2010 07:23:17 PM 819 Views
not all you just refuse to see things you disagree with - 06/08/2010 08:36:32 PM 783 Views
...said the pot to the kettle - 06/08/2010 09:17:28 PM 853 Views
yes but a shiny stainless steel pot - 09/08/2010 11:21:33 PM 900 Views
You continue to be wrong about history and the role of courts. - 10/08/2010 01:05:39 AM 1244 Views
If he's wrong, a lot of law scholars and Supreme Court Justices are wrong. - 10/08/2010 01:44:05 AM 701 Views
Brown vs. Board of Education, 'nuff said. *NM* - 10/08/2010 04:32:37 AM 385 Views
part oif the problem appears to be you completely missing the point - 10/08/2010 01:23:19 PM 915 Views
let my simplify my argument - 10/08/2010 01:42:47 PM 621 Views
Since when is marriage a right? *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:11:16 PM 375 Views
it may not be a "right"... - 05/08/2010 04:22:44 PM 651 Views
This is where the debate comes into play.... - 05/08/2010 05:04:08 PM 666 Views
How much would it change the debate if it was nurture, really? - 05/08/2010 09:48:22 PM 685 Views
except this is not merely a matter of changing society - 05/08/2010 11:18:48 PM 730 Views
1948. *NM* - 05/08/2010 04:50:30 PM 371 Views
It's a benefit that is being extended selectively to one set of the populace. - 05/08/2010 04:52:52 PM 733 Views
Hey, I'm single.... - 05/08/2010 05:05:41 PM 647 Views
That's a specious argument and you know it. - 05/08/2010 05:13:17 PM 720 Views
A homosexual has every opportunity as well..... - 05/08/2010 05:23:56 PM 666 Views
Oh quit the bullshit already. - 05/08/2010 05:29:15 PM 869 Views
Slow your role... - 05/08/2010 09:08:54 PM 773 Views
Your religious beliefs have 100% to do with your position. - 05/08/2010 09:43:23 PM 814 Views
Sorry, but what a nonsense. - 05/08/2010 09:27:17 PM 637 Views
hey that's it, jens! you solved the WHOLE PROBLEM!!! - 05/08/2010 11:24:29 PM 769 Views
ON TO WORLD HUNGER! - 06/08/2010 07:59:51 AM 661 Views
LET THEM HAVE CAEK. *NM* - 06/08/2010 02:29:56 PM 356 Views
Are you sure it's wise to feed people on a lie? *NM* - 06/08/2010 02:34:26 PM 447 Views
People are fed lies all the time - 06/08/2010 09:30:37 PM 645 Views
I agree with you - 05/08/2010 05:06:40 PM 701 Views
That's not valid. - 05/08/2010 05:26:50 PM 712 Views
I invite you to read the judge's conclusions, linked again inside. - 05/08/2010 11:43:44 PM 754 Views
Since 1948 - 06/08/2010 04:01:02 AM 856 Views
gah. can. only. see. typo. *NM* - 06/08/2010 03:43:21 PM 345 Views
I don't see any typo... *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:07:18 PM 402 Views
Open the link. *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:47:04 PM 492 Views
Oh, right. Yeah, that does kinda detract from things. *NM* - 06/08/2010 04:48:47 PM 381 Views
I agree - 05/08/2010 07:22:17 AM 723 Views
And Civil Rights lost the Democrats the South. - 05/08/2010 03:44:56 PM 737 Views
but it was done by congress passing laws and the president signing those laws - 05/08/2010 04:20:19 PM 685 Views
uhm, what? - 05/08/2010 04:24:43 PM 676 Views
those were mostly rulings up holding laws not stiking them down - 05/08/2010 05:05:15 PM 742 Views
I was under the impression that the supreme court had a role in it - 05/08/2010 04:31:51 PM 662 Views
but the court was not over turning the laws passed by congress - 05/08/2010 05:11:06 PM 709 Views
No, like in this case, isn't it? - 05/08/2010 05:24:19 PM 655 Views
I would say that is another case of judicial activism and shows the danger of the practice - 05/08/2010 05:43:02 PM 620 Views
Which one is? I imagine from different view points both are. - 06/08/2010 10:34:11 AM 623 Views
The law wasn't constitutional. - 07/08/2010 06:17:04 AM 660 Views
well it will take a higher court to decide that - 09/08/2010 10:46:15 PM 692 Views
Hard to believe it's the same governor who said "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman." *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:05:45 PM 459 Views
Or "Iff it bleeds we can kill itt!" *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:14:45 PM 434 Views
Another step in the right direction. *NM* - 04/08/2010 11:08:15 PM 454 Views
Link to the full court order inside: - 04/08/2010 11:43:29 PM 845 Views
The judge quoting Scalia in favour of gay marriage is fairly amusing. - 04/08/2010 11:50:47 PM 725 Views
What page was that on? - 05/08/2010 11:25:49 AM 642 Views
Nah, it was way above page 109, in the findings of fact somewhere. - 05/08/2010 12:37:48 PM 744 Views
Oh, that is brilliant. - 05/08/2010 01:12:21 PM 648 Views
Pretty much. - 05/08/2010 01:44:22 PM 777 Views
I've always wondered what basis there is for banning necrophilia if "it's disgusting" is invalid. - 05/08/2010 01:51:19 PM 725 Views
because you cannot give consent when you are dead? - 05/08/2010 03:04:46 PM 713 Views
what if you give consent while you are still alive? - 05/08/2010 03:21:59 PM 814 Views
Is it then illegal? - 05/08/2010 03:23:46 PM 732 Views
I would think it would be illegal even then - 05/08/2010 03:34:31 PM 747 Views
Wikipedia to the rescue! - 05/08/2010 04:20:15 PM 870 Views
A dead body is just an object, not a person with rights. - 05/08/2010 03:27:08 PM 732 Views
Yes, but - 06/08/2010 08:42:05 AM 688 Views
Absolutely not. - 06/08/2010 03:21:14 PM 738 Views
not to mention necrophilia has a large potential to be hazardous to health. - 06/08/2010 09:42:43 PM 787 Views
That was a very well written judgement. - 05/08/2010 11:24:38 AM 742 Views
- 05/08/2010 12:10:02 AM 737 Views
Totally agree. - 05/08/2010 01:01:42 PM 777 Views
+1 *NM* - 05/08/2010 03:42:08 PM 399 Views
Irrelevant decision.....this was heading to SCOTUS from day 1 *NM* - 05/08/2010 12:53:26 AM 414 Views

Reply to Message