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I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" Larry Send a noteboard - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM
It can not be an Ecological or Environmental book ass we define it today (preservation of, or return to a natural state), because the Freman are attempting to change the state of the planet into something else. Would you call a book titles "1,001 Ways To Polute" an Environmental book?


Since I've been self-studying Attic Greek recently, I'll note that the word comes from Oikos (house) and logia (study, study of). It's an examination of how organisms affect and are affected by other members, living and non-living alike, of local and global systems. As such, describing Dune as an "ecological" novel would be correct, in as far as noting how the environment of Arrakis shapes and is shaped by humans and how human views on the spice melange, trading arrangements, the Guild Steersmen, Bene Gesserit, etc. are affected by the processes that lead to the development of this precious substance.

The Barron is a deviant because he deviates fromm what is the societal norm. By that definition, yes homosexuallity is deviant (though I personally don't have an issue withit as long as my preferences are respected as well). However, homosexuallity (actually it is bi-sexuallity with a homosexual prefernce) is the absolute least of his many deviant behaviors.


But yet for some, having that as among his many "deviant" behaviors might be taken as a confirmation of sorts that such sexual behavior is "deviant" in the pejorative sense of the word? I noted it because it runs counter to the more positive portrayals of homosexuality in more recent SF novels.

If you insist on focusing your attention upon your perceived themes of ecology and homophobia you will miss the entire point of the books. You are making up your own themes, ones the author did not intend to include, did not develop within the book, and usinng them to promote your own position. In my opinion you are performing theft. You are stealing the Authors Work, and perverting it. This is why I object to the entire "The Author is Dead" school that you jokingly refer to.


You think there's a single, immutable "point" to the book into which you have a privileged insight? I don't presume such and I would suggest that you be very cautious in trying to view things in such a light. I'm well-schooled in interpretative approaches and their limitations and dangers and what I'm doing is exploring some of the possible interpretations that occur to me as I re-read these books. I don't claim absolute truth, nor do I view as sacrosanct the notion of "authorial intent," which is limited and misleading as well. Texts are not immutable, or else adherents to the world's religions would have single interpretations of their content. Same holds true for fictional works. Please keep that in mind.
If you want to discuss Environmental issues, use an environmental book, and have fun. Do not take a book that delves into the impact of religion, economics, abuse of power and pervert it. There is plenty do discuss and explore within the Dune universe without your fabrications.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within) - 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM 1860 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM 999 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM 1171 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM 1104 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM 1096 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM 1143 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM 960 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM 985 Views
That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM 856 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 06:33:14 PM 835 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 29/04/2010 11:38:26 PM 813 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme - 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM 953 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM 914 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM 863 Views
Good points - 22/04/2010 09:19:45 PM 897 Views
Re: Good points - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM 856 Views
when you call it human ecology I come much closer to agreeing - 22/04/2010 02:16:58 PM 874 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM 981 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM 832 Views
You're not using "archaic" correctly - 20/04/2010 10:07:31 PM 852 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM 761 Views
doesn't that regulate the point down to interesting trivia? - 21/04/2010 02:36:38 PM 878 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM 954 Views
Funny the things people focus on - 21/04/2010 11:24:59 PM 853 Views
Re: Funny the things people focus on - 23/04/2010 05:28:54 PM 857 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book - 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM 1339 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM* - 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM 432 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune - 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM 1048 Views
Ecology goes more than one way - 17/04/2010 12:12:45 AM 991 Views
There are several points to the book/series - 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM 1065 Views
Everyone get something different from a book - 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM 1251 Views
I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series - 20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM 1001 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts - 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM 1194 Views
I hope you got to Darwi Odrade - 21/04/2010 03:44:27 PM 873 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM 1435 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM 1237 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM 1162 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM 1117 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM 878 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM* - 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM 372 Views
And Dune Messiah as well was serialized at first, in Galaxy *NM* - 22/04/2010 09:31:54 PM 382 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM 1103 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM 864 Views
I didn't see that in Alia - 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM 772 Views
One of my favorite series! - 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM 781 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM 705 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM 818 Views
His style doesn't appeal to me as much, unfortunately - 22/04/2010 09:17:21 PM 704 Views
You might want to track down his short stories one day... - 23/04/2010 02:06:09 PM 929 Views
Children of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 22/04/2010 06:47:04 AM 912 Views
See...I think I made a mistake in my reading of Dune - 22/04/2010 07:26:28 AM 880 Views
Depends - 22/04/2010 08:01:39 AM 792 Views
Re: Depends - 22/04/2010 11:12:15 PM 1042 Views
read something else - 23/04/2010 07:49:34 PM 776 Views
LA Times article on Dune (4/18/2010) - 23/04/2010 10:59:00 AM 735 Views
God Emperor of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 25/04/2010 02:03:37 AM 999 Views
Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM 753 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM 824 Views
I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 29/04/2010 09:44:07 PM 799 Views
Re: I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 10/05/2010 04:10:49 AM 1131 Views
Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 30/04/2010 02:31:10 PM 932 Views
Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM 960 Views

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