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I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" Larry Send a noteboard - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM
It can not be an Ecological or Environmental book ass we define it today (preservation of, or return to a natural state), because the Freman are attempting to change the state of the planet into something else. Would you call a book titles "1,001 Ways To Polute" an Environmental book?


Since I've been self-studying Attic Greek recently, I'll note that the word comes from Oikos (house) and logia (study, study of). It's an examination of how organisms affect and are affected by other members, living and non-living alike, of local and global systems. As such, describing Dune as an "ecological" novel would be correct, in as far as noting how the environment of Arrakis shapes and is shaped by humans and how human views on the spice melange, trading arrangements, the Guild Steersmen, Bene Gesserit, etc. are affected by the processes that lead to the development of this precious substance.

The Barron is a deviant because he deviates fromm what is the societal norm. By that definition, yes homosexuallity is deviant (though I personally don't have an issue withit as long as my preferences are respected as well). However, homosexuallity (actually it is bi-sexuallity with a homosexual prefernce) is the absolute least of his many deviant behaviors.


But yet for some, having that as among his many "deviant" behaviors might be taken as a confirmation of sorts that such sexual behavior is "deviant" in the pejorative sense of the word? I noted it because it runs counter to the more positive portrayals of homosexuality in more recent SF novels.

If you insist on focusing your attention upon your perceived themes of ecology and homophobia you will miss the entire point of the books. You are making up your own themes, ones the author did not intend to include, did not develop within the book, and usinng them to promote your own position. In my opinion you are performing theft. You are stealing the Authors Work, and perverting it. This is why I object to the entire "The Author is Dead" school that you jokingly refer to.


You think there's a single, immutable "point" to the book into which you have a privileged insight? I don't presume such and I would suggest that you be very cautious in trying to view things in such a light. I'm well-schooled in interpretative approaches and their limitations and dangers and what I'm doing is exploring some of the possible interpretations that occur to me as I re-read these books. I don't claim absolute truth, nor do I view as sacrosanct the notion of "authorial intent," which is limited and misleading as well. Texts are not immutable, or else adherents to the world's religions would have single interpretations of their content. Same holds true for fictional works. Please keep that in mind.
If you want to discuss Environmental issues, use an environmental book, and have fun. Do not take a book that delves into the impact of religion, economics, abuse of power and pervert it. There is plenty do discuss and explore within the Dune universe without your fabrications.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within) - 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM 1819 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM 963 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM 1123 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM 1055 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM 1059 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM 1089 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM 929 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM 925 Views
That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM 815 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 06:33:14 PM 793 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 29/04/2010 11:38:26 PM 767 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme - 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM 898 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM 871 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM 816 Views
Good points - 22/04/2010 09:19:45 PM 848 Views
Re: Good points - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM 811 Views
when you call it human ecology I come much closer to agreeing - 22/04/2010 02:16:58 PM 831 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM 935 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM 790 Views
You're not using "archaic" correctly - 20/04/2010 10:07:31 PM 808 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM 720 Views
doesn't that regulate the point down to interesting trivia? - 21/04/2010 02:36:38 PM 843 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM 917 Views
Funny the things people focus on - 21/04/2010 11:24:59 PM 811 Views
Re: Funny the things people focus on - 23/04/2010 05:28:54 PM 820 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book - 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM 1292 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM* - 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM 415 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune - 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM 1001 Views
Ecology goes more than one way - 17/04/2010 12:12:45 AM 949 Views
There are several points to the book/series - 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM 1029 Views
Everyone get something different from a book - 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM 1203 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts - 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM 1159 Views
I hope you got to Darwi Odrade - 21/04/2010 03:44:27 PM 832 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM 1396 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM 1192 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM 1121 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM 1075 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM 834 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM* - 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM 360 Views
And Dune Messiah as well was serialized at first, in Galaxy *NM* - 22/04/2010 09:31:54 PM 366 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM 1065 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM 811 Views
I didn't see that in Alia - 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM 715 Views
One of my favorite series! - 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM 736 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM 659 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM 764 Views
His style doesn't appeal to me as much, unfortunately - 22/04/2010 09:17:21 PM 665 Views
You might want to track down his short stories one day... - 23/04/2010 02:06:09 PM 891 Views
Children of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 22/04/2010 06:47:04 AM 874 Views
See...I think I made a mistake in my reading of Dune - 22/04/2010 07:26:28 AM 846 Views
Depends - 22/04/2010 08:01:39 AM 747 Views
Re: Depends - 22/04/2010 11:12:15 PM 999 Views
read something else - 23/04/2010 07:49:34 PM 738 Views
LA Times article on Dune (4/18/2010) - 23/04/2010 10:59:00 AM 705 Views
God Emperor of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 25/04/2010 02:03:37 AM 959 Views
Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM 713 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM 774 Views
I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 29/04/2010 09:44:07 PM 758 Views
Re: I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 10/05/2010 04:10:49 AM 1085 Views
Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 30/04/2010 02:31:10 PM 894 Views
Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM 916 Views

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