I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
Larry Send a noteboard - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM
It can not be an Ecological or Environmental book ass we define it today (preservation of, or return to a natural state), because the Freman are attempting to change the state of the planet into something else. Would you call a book titles "1,001 Ways To Polute" an Environmental book?
Since I've been self-studying Attic Greek recently, I'll note that the word comes from Oikos (house) and logia (study, study of). It's an examination of how organisms affect and are affected by other members, living and non-living alike, of local and global systems. As such, describing Dune as an "ecological" novel would be correct, in as far as noting how the environment of Arrakis shapes and is shaped by humans and how human views on the spice melange, trading arrangements, the Guild Steersmen, Bene Gesserit, etc. are affected by the processes that lead to the development of this precious substance.
The Barron is a deviant because he deviates fromm what is the societal norm. By that definition, yes homosexuallity is deviant (though I personally don't have an issue withit as long as my preferences are respected as well). However, homosexuallity (actually it is bi-sexuallity with a homosexual prefernce) is the absolute least of his many deviant behaviors.
But yet for some, having that as among his many "deviant" behaviors might be taken as a confirmation of sorts that such sexual behavior is "deviant" in the pejorative sense of the word? I noted it because it runs counter to the more positive portrayals of homosexuality in more recent SF novels.
If you insist on focusing your attention upon your perceived themes of ecology and homophobia you will miss the entire point of the books. You are making up your own themes, ones the author did not intend to include, did not develop within the book, and usinng them to promote your own position. In my opinion you are performing theft. You are stealing the Authors Work, and perverting it. This is why I object to the entire "The Author is Dead" school that you jokingly refer to.
You think there's a single, immutable "point" to the book into which you have a privileged insight? I don't presume such and I would suggest that you be very cautious in trying to view things in such a light. I'm well-schooled in interpretative approaches and their limitations and dangers and what I'm doing is exploring some of the possible interpretations that occur to me as I re-read these books. I don't claim absolute truth, nor do I view as sacrosanct the notion of "authorial intent," which is limited and misleading as well. Texts are not immutable, or else adherents to the world's religions would have single interpretations of their content. Same holds true for fictional works. Please keep that in mind.
If you want to discuss Environmental issues, use an environmental book, and have fun. Do not take a book that delves into the impact of religion, economics, abuse of power and pervert it. There is plenty do discuss and explore within the Dune universe without your fabrications.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.
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Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within)
16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM
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Not all themes are intended by the author. That doesn't mean they aren't there.
17/04/2010 06:54:14 PM
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Re: Not all themes are intended by the author. That doesn't mean they aren't there.
17/04/2010 10:44:18 PM
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I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM
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Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM
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Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white?
18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM
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Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white?
19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM
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That was most of my issue.
21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM
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Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme
21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM
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Thank you for saying concisely the point I have been trying to make. *NM*
21/04/2010 06:34:12 PM
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A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM
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Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM
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Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
22/04/2010 04:08:28 PM
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Texts have different interpretations and Readers emphasize different aspects
22/04/2010 09:28:05 PM
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Re: Texts have different interpretations and Readers emphasize different aspects
23/04/2010 05:22:22 PM
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Re: Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme
29/04/2010 11:36:45 PM
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Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic.
19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM
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Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic.
20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM
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Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all.
21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM
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Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all.
21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM
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People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book
16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM
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Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM*
16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM
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I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune
16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM
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There are several points to the book/series
17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM
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Everyone get something different from a book
19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM
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I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series
20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM
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I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts
17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM
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Well, I enjoyed more of the characters this time around, if that helps
18/04/2010 12:14:43 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM
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I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM
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Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM
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Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM
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Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM
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I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM*
22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM
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Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM
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Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM
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I didn't see that in Alia
21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM
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There were a few scenes displaying Alia's abilities/mindset. (spoilers)
22/04/2010 03:54:32 PM
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OK, that makes a bit more sense, as I wasn't for sure what you were arguing at first
22/04/2010 09:14:46 PM
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One of my favorite series!
21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM
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I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM
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Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM
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Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM
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Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM
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