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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune Larry Send a noteboard - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM
Interesting but flawed reasoning. I have read all of the Dune books, including the ones that were written/completed by his son. Apparently I ahve also read the ones you have much more ofter. Arakis is one of the major characters of the first book (in later books you discover that the planet was not the character instead it is the worms), but ecology and enrinmental activism is not one of the major themes. It is at best a side effect. The major themes of Dune are all religious, moral, and mercantile.


While I'm not going to deny what occurs in latter novels, my focus is on trying to recreate my reading experience both in 2001 and in 2010 with the first book alone. I'll doubtless will get to issues you mention here in the other reviews. However, I will note that for the first novel, there is a heavy referencing of the influences that environment (and this encompasses not just ecology, but also human social environments) has on shaping religious/moral beliefs. The mercantile part I consider to be minor to the other two.

Additionally, there is no commentary about homosexuallity in the novel. BH is simply, intentionally, displayed as possessing the most offensive and disgusting traits imaginable. You would be just as accurate to attempt to fabricate some sort of parrallel between obese people and sexual deviancy in the novel.


It's there, just in passing and euphemisms. Considering that I was pointing out that Herbert's conflation of pedophilia and homosexuality in the person of the main villain may be offensive to modern-day readers (it only raised a metaphorical eyebrow for me, since I'm straight), it was worth a passing mention, especially since the attitude implied within such a casual connection is related to the more important issue of how the author portrays female characters in this setting.

You are making the error that entirely too many reviewers have and will do. Attempting to find themes in prose that do not exist because the author did not write them. Too many reviewer tripple-think into wonderful themes and messages by grabbing various images and actions and weaving them into a coherant "message" that simply does not exist, because the author was not writing them.


Before I can consider your point, what "errors" besides disagreeing with the passing comments on a few issues do you think I made? Because your statements really don't provide anything in the way of supporting your stances. At least I did provide some references to the novel itself ;)

There is no emviromental activism as we know it today in the novels, there is only an effort to convert a natural desert into airiable land. There is no statement on homosexuallity, there is simply an incredibly evil sadistic individual who partakes in every manner of diviant behavior imaginable, becasue he can.


Interesting viewpoint, considering it runs counter to what I noted about the influence the novel had on others, as well as what I said above about the Baron's sexuality. But tell me, are you making a connection between homosexuality and "deviant behavior" here? Because your comments would seem to suggest so.

If you want to investigate the thems, investigate the ones the authro wrote about: Slavery, Religion, Orthodoxy (morallity, i.e "The Greater Good";), Polotics (money=power, rule by fear vs loyalty). There is plenty to discuss, without creating new themes form whole cloth to further ones oown adgendas and biases. Alas, entirely too many reviewers and critics desire this, instead of investigating and discussing wghat teh auther actually intends.


Several of those themes doubtless will be addressed in future reviews of the series. And the "creating new themes whole cloth" wasn't my intent nor what I did; I made passing comments with references to the texts themselves, without those being the focus of the commentary.

And perhaps I subscribe to the Author is Dead school of thought? O<img class=' />

Though intelectually flawed, your piece is well written and supported by the passages you selected, kudos.


Hey, I like the challenges to what I wrote, by the way, even if I disagree with them :D
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within) - 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM 1815 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM 963 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM 1122 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM 1055 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM 1058 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM 1089 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM 927 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM 925 Views
That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM 815 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 06:33:14 PM 793 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 29/04/2010 11:38:26 PM 765 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme - 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM 898 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM 869 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM 816 Views
Good points - 22/04/2010 09:19:45 PM 848 Views
Re: Good points - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM 811 Views
when you call it human ecology I come much closer to agreeing - 22/04/2010 02:16:58 PM 831 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM 935 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM 790 Views
You're not using "archaic" correctly - 20/04/2010 10:07:31 PM 808 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM 720 Views
doesn't that regulate the point down to interesting trivia? - 21/04/2010 02:36:38 PM 843 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM 917 Views
Funny the things people focus on - 21/04/2010 11:24:59 PM 811 Views
Re: Funny the things people focus on - 23/04/2010 05:28:54 PM 820 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book - 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM 1290 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM* - 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM 415 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune - 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM 1001 Views
Ecology goes more than one way - 17/04/2010 12:12:45 AM 949 Views
There are several points to the book/series - 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM 1029 Views
Everyone get something different from a book - 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM 1203 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts - 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM 1159 Views
I hope you got to Darwi Odrade - 21/04/2010 03:44:27 PM 832 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM 1396 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM 1190 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM 1121 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM 1075 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM 834 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM* - 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM 360 Views
And Dune Messiah as well was serialized at first, in Galaxy *NM* - 22/04/2010 09:31:54 PM 366 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM 1064 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM 811 Views
I didn't see that in Alia - 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM 715 Views
One of my favorite series! - 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM 736 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM 659 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM 764 Views
His style doesn't appeal to me as much, unfortunately - 22/04/2010 09:17:21 PM 665 Views
You might want to track down his short stories one day... - 23/04/2010 02:06:09 PM 890 Views
Children of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 22/04/2010 06:47:04 AM 874 Views
See...I think I made a mistake in my reading of Dune - 22/04/2010 07:26:28 AM 845 Views
Depends - 22/04/2010 08:01:39 AM 747 Views
Re: Depends - 22/04/2010 11:12:15 PM 998 Views
read something else - 23/04/2010 07:49:34 PM 737 Views
LA Times article on Dune (4/18/2010) - 23/04/2010 10:59:00 AM 705 Views
God Emperor of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 25/04/2010 02:03:37 AM 959 Views
Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM 713 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM 774 Views
I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 29/04/2010 09:44:07 PM 758 Views
Re: I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 10/05/2010 04:10:49 AM 1085 Views
Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 30/04/2010 02:31:10 PM 894 Views
Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM 915 Views

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