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In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays Larry Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM
Eco himself distinguishes between "light fiction" and "literature", and I've seen countless articles on the dissatisfaction that authors feel when their works are labeled as works of a particular genre. If the case were as clear as you claim, I doubt that would happen. Labels only hurt when they stigmatise (one of the reasons "cracker" never took off, by the way), and the label of "fantasy" or "sci-fi" certainly stings.


The problem with writing short responses is that I can't add the usual qualifiers I prefer. But the fantasy/SF label I don't think "stings." If anything, it's a rather complex label association in which there are "purists" who frown in disdain whenever an author whose works do not fit into neat typologies (say, mágico realismo) tries to develop further labels in an attempt not to "escape" a genre, but rather to define such as being closer to what that author has attempted to achieve.

The reason, as I stated, is that the genre label is a way of tipping off the would-be reader to the formulaic and derivative nature that the reader is presumably looking for. An author that seeks to write something meaningful and thought-provoking would not like to be seen as formulaic and derivative. Hence, "genre" has become synonymous with "derivative" and "light fiction".


So you're claiming semantic shift there in what "genre" constitutes? Not denying that for some, that has occurred, but considering what I've been reading in lit journals recently (Conjunctions, Alaska Quarterly Review, Ninth Letter, Southern Review among others), I would have to note that there are quite a few journal editors out there today who appear to be viewing "genre" as being more neutral than the "derivative" or "light" labels that you employ here. Pick up a copy of Conjunctions 52: Betwixt the Between: Impossible Realism and note the authors and how they (self)define their career paths, their stories, and so forth. It isn't a clear-cut "genre is light, derivative in approach." Rather, it would appear to make more sense to argue that genre (of various sorts) refers to types of stories that utilize certain elements. Some might be devoid of depth or originality,but as an aggregate, genres reflect human interests and several examples serve as exemplary models of how these various story types appeal to various material cultures.

Also, cannot let you off lightly with that comment of "tipping off". Oh, then are you arguing that there is a non-genre form of literature? One that has no typological features? One that cannot be classified in with other stories that might share certain features? After all, "genre" ultimately is but "genus," no?

Also, for the record, everyone is ultimately a dilettante when it comes to literature - and not only because most of the English majors are cooking their latest batch of French fries at McDonald's. An English degree (or literature degree) is by itself worthless. I should know this, because I'm actually not a dilettante. I have a degree in Russian Literature, in case you've forgotten.


I haven't forgotten, just as I have one in cultural history (which meant I had to analyze too many texts for their subtexts and cultural commentaries). But critical theory? That's where all the (almost-pointless) fun is, no? :P

I find your use of academic catchphrases that really say very little quite funny:

Rather, the trend seems to be going toward recognizing that there are literatures of the mimetic and the speculative that co-exist simultaneously in various genre typologies and that analysis of these literatures has to take on a multi-pronged, more inclusive approach than had been previously the case.

You could have simply said "Consensus is that a speculative genre shouldn't be used as a criterion for excluding a book from the definition of literature". The Economist Style Guide would be the first to tell you to tone down the language to see you haven't said much, could have said it more elegantly and more simply.

If only someone had told Dumas the same thing...


I could have, but that would have removed certain nuances from my argument that I wanted to remain there. I am not merely talking about one form of storytelling, but two. Not only that, but that while there might be two conceived prose forms (mimetic and speculative), there are those stories that float on the perimeters of both and have to be considered in a fashion that does not condemn them to a binary approach. I actually said quite a bit inside that sentence, so it was quite economical for those willing to unpack it ;) Now as to whether or not it was elegant/simple, that's beside the point here! The point revolves around a fuzzy set of interpretations of what constitutes mimetic/speculative prose and whether or not works can a) be divided along those twin axes and b) if a qualitative argument can be made about such works divided into either category that touches upon not just the individual works, but also the aggregate.

I would argue that it is folly to employ a rigid binary model, in part because despite the typological similarities that would lead a work to be placed into a grouping (speculative, mimetic, poetry, biography, critical analysis, etc.), there are so many other factors that work to undermine these surface similarities (how prose is employed, is characterization involved, are there inherent themes, etc.) that making a qualitative argument based on type seems to be taking a rather myopic approach to analysing literary types.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open! - 25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM 2445 Views
Le plot. - 25/01/2010 10:55:26 PM 1211 Views
Plot: demarcation, plan, complot... - 26/01/2010 11:48:19 PM 1343 Views
Les characters. - 25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM 1299 Views
The good, the bad and the ugly. - 26/01/2010 10:54:38 AM 1317 Views
Hmm. - 27/01/2010 03:58:31 PM 1237 Views
Re: Hmm. - 27/01/2010 04:59:12 PM 1305 Views
Re: Hmm. - 28/01/2010 01:40:34 PM 1248 Views
Re: Hmm. - 01/02/2010 12:49:06 PM 1457 Views
Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM 1282 Views
Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography? - 25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM 1410 Views
I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM 1317 Views
Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak. - 26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM 1366 Views
In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying. - 27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM 1476 Views
Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM 1363 Views
Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text. - 27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM 1196 Views
There is no such thing - 27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM 1250 Views
I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel. - 27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM 1300 Views
It isn't a postmodern take on it - 27/01/2010 02:41:32 PM 1270 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM 1244 Views
Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol. - 27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM 1309 Views
If I ddin't know better, I might think you a trifle petulant - 27/01/2010 04:19:57 PM 1369 Views
I'm never petulant - 27/01/2010 04:55:56 PM 1241 Views
Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting - 27/01/2010 04:47:37 PM 1339 Views
I think one important question to ask is... - 26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM 1353 Views
I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time. - 26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM 1295 Views
the potentially removable part... - 26/01/2010 11:24:16 AM 1358 Views
I have read both - 27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM 1376 Views
The abridged versus the unabridged - 28/01/2010 06:32:22 AM 1288 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 27/01/2010 01:16:47 AM 1415 Views
Re: Why does the book have enduring appeal? - 30/01/2010 09:12:22 AM 1302 Views
Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter: - 22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM 1476 Views
I'm watching right back, Big Brother. *NM* - 25/01/2010 11:44:30 PM 660 Views
*NM* - 25/01/2010 11:45:27 PM 645 Views
The book was very childish. - 26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM 1413 Views
Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM 679 Views
No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM 1361 Views
You know, this is a problem. - 26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM 1334 Views
There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above. - 26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM 1401 Views
People tend to forget one thing about Tolkien - 26/01/2010 01:36:06 PM 1329 Views
Re: No, it really isn't. - 26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM 1265 Views
I'll admit the only Lem I've read is Solaris... - 26/01/2010 01:52:02 PM 1351 Views
Read His Master's Voice - 26/01/2010 04:52:31 PM 1267 Views
You make some rather odd claims here, Tom - 27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM 1351 Views
You place undue importance on academic degrees. - 27/01/2010 01:19:40 AM 1342 Views
You misread totally what I said, I see... - 27/01/2010 01:52:59 AM 1269 Views
My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common. - 27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM 1323 Views
In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM 1258 Views
If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you? - 27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM 1313 Views
I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors - 27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM 1375 Views
Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled. - 27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM 1418 Views
But yet their reactions vary widely - 27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM 1294 Views
My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction. - 28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM 1286 Views
And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels - 29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM 1195 Views
I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted. - 29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM 1255 Views
I think estrangement is a key element, though - 30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM 1227 Views
I don't think estrangement is a necessary element. - 30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM 1432 Views
I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader - 31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM 1233 Views
Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree. - 03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM 1230 Views
Depends on how you view SF, I suppose - 03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM 1107 Views
I thought that was what we were mulling over - 03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM 1228 Views
True - 03/02/2010 05:11:19 AM 1163 Views
Nice tie-in! - 03/02/2010 01:55:33 PM 1215 Views
- 05/02/2010 06:06:23 AM 1300 Views
The approve of this message. - 26/01/2010 03:34:49 AM 1333 Views
I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question - 26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM 1239 Views
Wait...you VOTED for this book? - 26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM 1310 Views
I honestly can't remember. - 26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM 1266 Views
Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written. - 26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM 1276 Views
Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better. - 26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM 1281 Views
The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good. - 26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM 1330 Views
Possession is not "purely a romance novel". - 26/01/2010 02:57:17 PM 1448 Views
Which basically proves my entire point. - 26/01/2010 03:00:20 PM 1322 Views
Which is purely a romance novel? - 26/01/2010 02:59:38 PM 1326 Views
Fair enough, it might be a bit tricky to discuss. *NM* - 26/01/2010 03:04:58 PM 656 Views
In your opinion - 26/01/2010 03:07:12 PM 1329 Views
Exactly why I avoid suggesting modern books - 26/01/2010 03:10:09 PM 1312 Views
You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you? - 27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM 1299 Views
Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me. - 27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM 1205 Views
Ha! - 27/01/2010 02:22:00 AM 1257 Views
Perhaps I would like it. I still hate epistolary novels. - 27/01/2010 01:26:43 PM 1291 Views
Indeed. *NM* - 26/01/2010 02:01:22 PM 598 Views
It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level. - 26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM 1388 Views
Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog - 26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM 1409 Views
I don't care if this validates your opinion of me. - 29/01/2010 11:06:18 PM 1191 Views
On what basis? - 26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM 1343 Views
It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed. - 26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM 1347 Views
Usually does, when those who know better keep silent. - 26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM 1250 Views
I didn't keep silent, though. - 26/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 1332 Views
You're ignoring what we've been discussing. - 27/01/2010 11:11:44 AM 1297 Views
Regarding comfort zones - 26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM 1368 Views
Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM 1354 Views
Re: Camilla, let's be honest here... - 26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM 1351 Views
If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed. - 27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM 1410 Views
Possibly - 27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM 1278 Views
I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM 1279 Views
Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification. - 27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM 1268 Views
I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM 1401 Views
Don't you get it? We bring this place down. - 27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM 1251 Views
Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg. - 27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM 1265 Views
While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus. - 27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM 1258 Views
why is it a bonus? - 27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM 1230 Views
I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete. - 27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM 1513 Views
I did - 27/01/2010 04:40:25 PM 1297 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM 1325 Views
Re: Regarding comfort zones - 27/01/2010 11:59:31 AM 1278 Views
Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:07:14 PM 1272 Views
Re: Halfway - 27/01/2010 12:09:02 PM 1289 Views
Re: The book was very childish. - 30/01/2010 09:56:29 PM 1297 Views
I read it in French - 30/01/2010 10:54:34 PM 1179 Views
So. I really liked it. - 26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM 1394 Views
Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM 1272 Views
Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand. - 26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM 1311 Views
We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM 1391 Views
Re: We were talking about this last night. - 27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM 1393 Views
If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown. - 27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM 1367 Views
Feel free to. - 27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM 1339 Views
Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM 1303 Views
Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit. - 27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM 1325 Views
I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach. - 27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM 1208 Views
My touchy-feely approach? - 27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM 1229 Views
Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis. - 27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM 1281 Views
Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion? - 27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM 1251 Views
I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM 1257 Views
You summed up my reasons for using "touchy-feely" quite well. - 27/01/2010 07:27:45 PM 1241 Views
Glad to hear it. - 27/01/2010 07:39:20 PM 1131 Views
Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here. - 27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM 1311 Views
See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM 1354 Views
Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then. - 27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM 1271 Views
Well, so what will it be? - 27/01/2010 09:14:53 PM 1227 Views
Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours? - 27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM 1154 Views
Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM 1392 Views
Re: Do it. I'd read that. - 27/01/2010 02:10:04 PM 1290 Views
Right then. - 27/01/2010 02:15:04 PM 1261 Views
All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two. - 27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM 1324 Views
And ANOTHER THING - 27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM 1191 Views
Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM* - 27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM 704 Views
Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM 1340 Views
Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing. - 27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM 1299 Views
We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM 1221 Views
In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions... - 27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM 1393 Views
It was mildly interesting. - 27/01/2010 09:04:03 PM 1344 Views
I think you're misreading that... - 27/01/2010 10:18:11 PM 1360 Views
Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults. - 27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM 1363 Views
The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do. - 27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM 1230 Views
fine. *NM* - 27/01/2010 09:12:44 PM 642 Views
Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not. - 27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM 1266 Views
What discussion? - 27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM 1295 Views
I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms. - 27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM 1379 Views
Which I still think we can. - 27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM 1259 Views
Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM 1369 Views
Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all. - 27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM 1312 Views
You have yet to show any utility for breaking things down. - 27/01/2010 09:19:29 PM 1378 Views
I haven't tried to show any "utility" for it. - 01/02/2010 01:06:35 PM 1223 Views
I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM 1280 Views
Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on. - 01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM 1200 Views
Deary me. - 27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM 1471 Views
By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates? - 27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 1224 Views
Not at all. - 27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM 1406 Views
Okay, I'm cool with that. - 27/01/2010 05:44:54 PM 1376 Views
Thank you. - 27/01/2010 05:48:05 PM 1793 Views
Please ban me, then. - 27/01/2010 06:44:55 PM 1240 Views
Nods - 18/02/2010 05:06:44 PM 1719 Views
Oh man, I love this thread. *NM* - 28/01/2010 01:17:58 AM 628 Views
On the nature of the "Book Club" - 28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM 1140 Views
Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions? - 28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM 1364 Views
Yes, shorter would be good. - 28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM 1214 Views
Oh i'm not complaining - 28/01/2010 10:33:48 PM 1219 Views
Sure sounded like it. - 28/01/2010 10:38:27 PM 1278 Views
No for reals, shorter is good. - 29/01/2010 01:08:26 AM 1253 Views
Absolutely. - 29/01/2010 03:33:15 AM 1191 Views
Agreed - 29/01/2010 11:26:34 AM 1283 Views
Well, you should have known better! - 29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM 1254 Views
I do. - 29/01/2010 08:31:30 PM 1241 Views
Thought you did - 29/01/2010 08:38:39 PM 1224 Views
- 29/01/2010 08:51:42 PM 1260 Views
All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM* - 29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM 609 Views
That is the other one that I am considering. *NM* - 29/01/2010 03:32:02 AM 625 Views
I'll re-read Zhivago or Master if either is chosen - 29/01/2010 05:26:02 AM 1211 Views
Talk to me Ghavrel. - 30/01/2010 12:09:24 AM 1160 Views
Well, I haven't finished it yet. - 30/01/2010 02:21:08 AM 1220 Views
Re: On the nature of the "Book Club" - 29/01/2010 12:33:03 PM 1215 Views
I didn't read it for the Book Club - 29/01/2010 12:40:22 AM 1227 Views
Well I'm late to the party - 29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM 1193 Views
No, you're early - 01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM 1098 Views
I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM* - 03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM 669 Views
A few comments - 04/02/2010 06:39:18 AM 1540 Views
If I kept you from participating, that's your fault. - 04/02/2010 01:01:46 PM 1181 Views
An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience? - 29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM 1269 Views
Sure. - 01/02/2010 03:23:59 PM 1234 Views

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