In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays
Larry Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM
Eco himself distinguishes between "light fiction" and "literature", and I've seen countless articles on the dissatisfaction that authors feel when their works are labeled as works of a particular genre. If the case were as clear as you claim, I doubt that would happen. Labels only hurt when they stigmatise (one of the reasons "cracker" never took off, by the way), and the label of "fantasy" or "sci-fi" certainly stings.
The problem with writing short responses is that I can't add the usual qualifiers I prefer. But the fantasy/SF label I don't think "stings." If anything, it's a rather complex label association in which there are "purists" who frown in disdain whenever an author whose works do not fit into neat typologies (say, mágico realismo) tries to develop further labels in an attempt not to "escape" a genre, but rather to define such as being closer to what that author has attempted to achieve.
The reason, as I stated, is that the genre label is a way of tipping off the would-be reader to the formulaic and derivative nature that the reader is presumably looking for. An author that seeks to write something meaningful and thought-provoking would not like to be seen as formulaic and derivative. Hence, "genre" has become synonymous with "derivative" and "light fiction".
So you're claiming semantic shift there in what "genre" constitutes? Not denying that for some, that has occurred, but considering what I've been reading in lit journals recently (Conjunctions, Alaska Quarterly Review, Ninth Letter, Southern Review among others), I would have to note that there are quite a few journal editors out there today who appear to be viewing "genre" as being more neutral than the "derivative" or "light" labels that you employ here. Pick up a copy of Conjunctions 52: Betwixt the Between: Impossible Realism and note the authors and how they (self)define their career paths, their stories, and so forth. It isn't a clear-cut "genre is light, derivative in approach." Rather, it would appear to make more sense to argue that genre (of various sorts) refers to types of stories that utilize certain elements. Some might be devoid of depth or originality,but as an aggregate, genres reflect human interests and several examples serve as exemplary models of how these various story types appeal to various material cultures.
Also, cannot let you off lightly with that comment of "tipping off". Oh, then are you arguing that there is a non-genre form of literature? One that has no typological features? One that cannot be classified in with other stories that might share certain features? After all, "genre" ultimately is but "genus," no?
Also, for the record, everyone is ultimately a dilettante when it comes to literature - and not only because most of the English majors are cooking their latest batch of French fries at McDonald's. An English degree (or literature degree) is by itself worthless. I should know this, because I'm actually not a dilettante. I have a degree in Russian Literature, in case you've forgotten.
I haven't forgotten, just as I have one in cultural history (which meant I had to analyze too many texts for their subtexts and cultural commentaries). But critical theory? That's where all the (almost-pointless) fun is, no?
I find your use of academic catchphrases that really say very little quite funny:
Rather, the trend seems to be going toward recognizing that there are literatures of the mimetic and the speculative that co-exist simultaneously in various genre typologies and that analysis of these literatures has to take on a multi-pronged, more inclusive approach than had been previously the case.
You could have simply said "Consensus is that a speculative genre shouldn't be used as a criterion for excluding a book from the definition of literature". The Economist Style Guide would be the first to tell you to tone down the language to see you haven't said much, could have said it more elegantly and more simply.
If only someone had told Dumas the same thing...
Rather, the trend seems to be going toward recognizing that there are literatures of the mimetic and the speculative that co-exist simultaneously in various genre typologies and that analysis of these literatures has to take on a multi-pronged, more inclusive approach than had been previously the case.
You could have simply said "Consensus is that a speculative genre shouldn't be used as a criterion for excluding a book from the definition of literature". The Economist Style Guide would be the first to tell you to tone down the language to see you haven't said much, could have said it more elegantly and more simply.
If only someone had told Dumas the same thing...
I could have, but that would have removed certain nuances from my argument that I wanted to remain there. I am not merely talking about one form of storytelling, but two. Not only that, but that while there might be two conceived prose forms (mimetic and speculative), there are those stories that float on the perimeters of both and have to be considered in a fashion that does not condemn them to a binary approach. I actually said quite a bit inside that sentence, so it was quite economical for those willing to unpack it Now as to whether or not it was elegant/simple, that's beside the point here! The point revolves around a fuzzy set of interpretations of what constitutes mimetic/speculative prose and whether or not works can a) be divided along those twin axes and b) if a qualitative argument can be made about such works divided into either category that touches upon not just the individual works, but also the aggregate.
I would argue that it is folly to employ a rigid binary model, in part because despite the typological similarities that would lead a work to be placed into a grouping (speculative, mimetic, poetry, biography, critical analysis, etc.), there are so many other factors that work to undermine these surface similarities (how prose is employed, is characterization involved, are there inherent themes, etc.) that making a qualitative argument based on type seems to be taking a rather myopic approach to analysing literary types.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.
The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas - Book Club now open!
25/01/2010 10:54:37 PM
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Les characters.
25/01/2010 10:56:23 PM
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Why does the book have enduring appeal?
25/01/2010 10:57:37 PM
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Or rather, does this book share any traits in common with pornography?
25/01/2010 11:14:01 PM
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I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak.
26/01/2010 03:43:04 AM
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Re: I think the revenge plot is actually fairly weak.
26/01/2010 11:12:19 AM
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In that case, the "release" is quite unsatisfying.
27/01/2010 01:42:28 PM
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Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting
27/01/2010 02:06:58 PM
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He would not have known the book would be ruined by water. He thought he was being buried.
27/01/2010 02:15:02 PM
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Oh, and your point on revenge - that's just reading too much into the text.
27/01/2010 02:16:05 PM
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There is no such thing
27/01/2010 02:18:46 PM
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I fundamentally disagree with your post-modern take on the novel.
27/01/2010 02:25:25 PM
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Re: Which is precisely part of what makes the book interesting
27/01/2010 03:40:36 PM
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Maybe it's of the same importance as the Lost Symbol.
27/01/2010 03:44:55 PM
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I think one important question to ask is...
26/01/2010 12:00:17 AM
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I like it, but it is purely on the adventure story level, and I've read the unabridged version.
26/01/2010 12:03:01 AM
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I'm fairly certain I read the unabridged version. It was 1500 pages. *NM*
26/01/2010 02:36:10 AM
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I have read the abridged version a couple of times. I am reading the unabridged version this time.
26/01/2010 03:25:50 AM
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I have read both
27/01/2010 01:37:00 AM
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I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general.
27/01/2010 01:44:46 AM
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Re: I actually didn't mean the people here on the site so much as readers in general.
27/01/2010 01:48:11 AM
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Re: I got here too late, so I offer Umberto Eco's thoughts on the matter:
22/02/2010 06:59:13 PM
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The book was very childish.
26/01/2010 03:05:01 AM
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Granted, The Master and Margarita is also very much a fantasy book. *NM*
26/01/2010 03:07:45 AM
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No, it really isn't.
26/01/2010 03:10:08 AM
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You know, this is a problem.
26/01/2010 03:43:14 AM
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Thank God, I've never even heard of "Skol". Popov, yes, but Skol?
26/01/2010 03:49:08 AM
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I've not tried it, but every time I go into liquor stores, it sits on the bottom shelf.
26/01/2010 03:57:03 AM
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There's really nothing I can say to this that Greg didn't just say above.
26/01/2010 06:32:02 AM
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Re: No, it really isn't.
26/01/2010 10:57:19 AM
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Having Camilla concur with me on literary matters is very encouraging.
26/01/2010 01:37:23 PM
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I do not agree with your complete dismissal of The Count of Monte Cristo, though
26/01/2010 04:58:58 PM
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You make some rather odd claims here, Tom
27/01/2010 12:43:41 AM
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My claims are far from odd. In fact, they're quite common.
27/01/2010 01:57:41 AM
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In some circles; in others, they're rather antiquated nowadays
27/01/2010 02:21:03 AM
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If you were trying to write literature, wouldn't the label sting for you?
27/01/2010 01:25:14 PM
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I think it's easier to think of stories fitting into genre(s) than to think the same of authors
27/01/2010 02:40:29 PM
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Allow me to clarify: I'm talking about authors' reactions to their books being so labelled.
27/01/2010 03:08:47 PM
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But yet their reactions vary widely
27/01/2010 11:33:25 PM
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My fundamental premise is that genre has the most utility when applied to derivative fiction.
28/01/2010 09:39:17 PM
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And yet that term is mostly used as a non-loaded term that doesn't attempt to ascribe quality levels
29/01/2010 02:49:20 AM
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I like my definition of science fiction better than the one you quoted.
29/01/2010 05:16:36 AM
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I think estrangement is a key element, though
30/01/2010 11:00:19 PM
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I don't think estrangement is a necessary element.
30/01/2010 11:47:07 PM
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I mean it as a literary effect, that of creating a distance between text and reader
31/01/2010 12:03:34 AM
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Even if that's the meaning, I still disagree.
03/02/2010 12:49:58 AM
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Depends on how you view SF, I suppose
03/02/2010 04:20:56 AM
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I thought that was what we were mulling over
03/02/2010 04:38:35 AM
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Your unscientific anecdotal evidence sounds very odd to me.
28/01/2010 12:15:10 AM
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It might. I'm not purporting to speak for all of humanity (at least on this point).
28/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
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So, what you're saying is that watching the 2002 movie was sufficient? Good! *NM*
26/01/2010 06:34:53 AM
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I'm not through it quite yet, but I do have a question
26/01/2010 12:24:14 PM
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Wait...you VOTED for this book?
26/01/2010 01:41:00 PM
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I honestly can't remember.
26/01/2010 01:55:39 PM
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Doctor Zhivago is one of the best novels ever written.
26/01/2010 02:12:35 PM
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Right, so now we all know that if we'd just listen to me more often, the world would be better.
26/01/2010 02:20:56 PM
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The problem was that the suggestions were generally not that good.
26/01/2010 02:32:50 PM
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You really are ignornant of what A.S. Byatt writes, aren't you?
27/01/2010 12:51:00 AM
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Oh, I fucking hate epistolary novels. Thank you for warning me.
27/01/2010 02:00:34 AM
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It's funny because I think it's a question of taste level.
26/01/2010 02:32:08 PM
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Curious George is a tale of many layers, as told by Werner Herzog
26/01/2010 02:34:27 PM
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On what basis?
26/01/2010 02:51:40 PM
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It's a children's book. Get over it. Democracy failed.
26/01/2010 02:55:03 PM
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Usually does, when those who know better keep silent.
26/01/2010 02:57:54 PM
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Regarding comfort zones
26/01/2010 05:08:50 PM
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Camilla, let's be honest here...
26/01/2010 05:40:08 PM
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Re: Camilla, let's be honest here...
26/01/2010 09:10:47 PM
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If that's your goal, Camilla, you failed.
27/01/2010 01:35:52 PM
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Possibly
27/01/2010 01:38:39 PM
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I have not been ranting and raving. I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification.
27/01/2010 01:45:05 PM
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Re: I've been highly critical of the book, with much justification.
27/01/2010 01:53:28 PM
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I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg.
27/01/2010 02:26:12 PM
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Don't you get it? We bring this place down.
27/01/2010 02:42:32 PM
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Heh heh heh. Pink cardigan-wearing suburban cul-de-sac. I like it. *NM*
27/01/2010 03:11:25 PM
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Re: I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame me and Greg.
27/01/2010 02:43:11 PM
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While that was not the intent, that is an added bonus.
27/01/2010 02:48:47 PM
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why is it a bonus?
27/01/2010 02:52:58 PM
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I said see above. You should have before the thought police, Rebekah, started to delete.
27/01/2010 02:59:07 PM
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Well, you wouldn't grow tired of us calling a novel shit if you chose a novel that wasn't shit.
27/01/2010 03:11:57 PM
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Re: Regarding comfort zones
27/01/2010 11:57:03 AM
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So. I really liked it.
26/01/2010 08:57:02 AM
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Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand.
26/01/2010 11:04:23 PM
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Re: Yes, fearless leader, this is where I stand.
26/01/2010 11:49:03 PM
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We were talking about this last night.
27/01/2010 11:14:21 AM
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Re: We were talking about this last night.
27/01/2010 11:37:04 AM
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If you do that, I'm posting on the deeper meaning of Dan Brown.
27/01/2010 01:46:35 PM
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Feel free to.
27/01/2010 01:51:23 PM
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Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit.
27/01/2010 02:28:56 PM
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Re: Your post-modern take on the novel is shit, shit, shit.
27/01/2010 02:45:41 PM
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I'm not setting up a straw man. I'm challenging your touchy-feely approach.
27/01/2010 03:15:00 PM
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My touchy-feely approach?
27/01/2010 05:09:04 PM
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Yes...using passing references in the text to justify a deeper analysis.
27/01/2010 05:16:10 PM
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Doesn't touchy-feely mean that it is steeped in or based on emotion?
27/01/2010 06:40:31 PM
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I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here.
27/01/2010 07:01:08 PM
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Re: I think between the two of you I agree more with Tom here.
27/01/2010 08:29:32 PM
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See my reply to Tom for clarification, then.
27/01/2010 08:57:18 PM
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Re: See my reply to Tom for clarification, then.
27/01/2010 09:09:47 PM
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Er. Whose position are you arguing - mine or yours?
27/01/2010 10:33:01 PM
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Mine. Which is more complicated than a simple rejection. That is what I am saying.
01/02/2010 12:53:58 PM
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Do it. I'd read that.
27/01/2010 01:55:23 PM
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All righty, that's enough of that. For Tom, Greg, and... no, pretty much just you two.
27/01/2010 04:33:00 PM
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I call bullshit. I have been conducting the debate in a measured fashion.
27/01/2010 04:50:35 PM
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And ANOTHER THING
27/01/2010 05:05:17 PM
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Not everyone has finished reading it yet *NM*
27/01/2010 05:12:10 PM
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Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing.
27/01/2010 05:17:51 PM
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Re: Okay, so you'll get one or two stragglers in a week to a month. It changes nothing.
27/01/2010 06:41:11 PM
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We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults.
27/01/2010 07:30:49 PM
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In the interest of discussing Dumas' intentions...
27/01/2010 08:03:24 PM
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Re: We are discussing this book. We're discussing its faults.
27/01/2010 08:30:19 PM
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The text doesn't warrant "close attention" any more than Dan Brown's works do.
27/01/2010 09:10:45 PM
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Also, do you think a good book would have generated this level of discussion? Of course not.
27/01/2010 05:21:45 PM
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What discussion?
27/01/2010 06:42:32 PM
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I said that we couldn't discuss the book on its own terms.
27/01/2010 07:35:32 PM
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Which I still think we can.
27/01/2010 08:35:35 PM
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Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all.
27/01/2010 09:06:59 PM
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Re: Perhaps you shouldn't be breaking things down at all.
27/01/2010 09:12:22 PM
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I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on.
27/01/2010 10:40:36 PM
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Re: I apologize if I'm part of the reason you feel ganged up on.
01/02/2010 12:56:03 PM
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Deary me.
27/01/2010 05:19:58 PM
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By "respect" do you mean that you want me to drop my debates?
27/01/2010 05:24:03 PM
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Not at all.
27/01/2010 05:35:34 PM
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I'm sorry as well - if I had any kind of willpower, it wouldn't have gotten that far.
27/01/2010 06:29:43 PM
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On the nature of the "Book Club"
28/01/2010 09:23:23 PM
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Any chance of seeing some shorter suggestions?
28/01/2010 10:20:59 PM
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Yes, shorter would be good.
28/01/2010 10:23:28 PM
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Well, you should have known better!
29/01/2010 01:29:40 AM
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All I can say is The Master and Margarita better be one by March. WE WAS ROBBED. *NM*
29/01/2010 02:31:48 AM
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Well I'm late to the party
29/01/2010 06:21:18 AM
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No, you're early
01/02/2010 01:26:10 PM
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I still have yet to see that discussion, Camilla. *NM*
03/02/2010 12:46:24 AM
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Interesting way of dismissing what has already been discussed about the book
03/02/2010 04:22:26 AM
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Nah, there's been discussion, here and there inbetween the fighting. *NM*
03/02/2010 04:39:24 PM
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An interesting quote from the book - does it jibe with your experience?
29/01/2010 11:23:54 PM
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