I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
Larry Send a noteboard - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM
I don't have any problem with their mention of homosexuality - Baron Harkonnen is a villain who happens to have homosexual encounters. He is not meant to represent the gay community, so I think you are over-analyzing here.
Also, their culture is based off of certain features of human society on Earth, so that woman being in maternal or domestic roles is supposed to be indicative of a throwback to more "traditional" times. After all, this is a futuristic civilization that destroyed all of it's advanced robotics and artificial intelligence - a lot of the roles we see are actually supposed to be from the Orange Catholic Bible and it's supporting texts. You'll notice in future novels that after the God Emperor takes over, gender roles become more fluid and individual, with a generalized meta-evolution of the species being a realized goal of Leto II and Ghanima.
What I think you may be missing is that the book is written in such a way that it leaves a lot to the readers' imagination while a lot of action is happening on-screen. For example, in that last scene, we dip into the thoughts of everyone involved to see that Jessica's arrival was indicated in a prophecy among the Fremen - where you see clunky dialogue, I see a scene description from multiple POVs delivered in one chapter and rather fluidly describing movement and overall composition of the social scene.
Also, I think you are missing the fact that Frank Herbert wrote these characters with an understanding of Jungian psychology and archetypes - many of these characters seem quasi-mythical because they were meant to resemble myths.
You will notice that reading Jessica's critical paper on how the Bene Gesserit lost control of the Kwisatz Haderach project is a very different point of view from the tone used throughout the novel. This is because the point of view used to convey each story is largely different. I think "Chapterhouse Dune" would be more to your liking in terms of traditional POV descriptions - it is less about telling a story to an audience and more about the experience and inner motivations of a few core characters.
Also, their culture is based off of certain features of human society on Earth, so that woman being in maternal or domestic roles is supposed to be indicative of a throwback to more "traditional" times. After all, this is a futuristic civilization that destroyed all of it's advanced robotics and artificial intelligence - a lot of the roles we see are actually supposed to be from the Orange Catholic Bible and it's supporting texts. You'll notice in future novels that after the God Emperor takes over, gender roles become more fluid and individual, with a generalized meta-evolution of the species being a realized goal of Leto II and Ghanima.
What I think you may be missing is that the book is written in such a way that it leaves a lot to the readers' imagination while a lot of action is happening on-screen. For example, in that last scene, we dip into the thoughts of everyone involved to see that Jessica's arrival was indicated in a prophecy among the Fremen - where you see clunky dialogue, I see a scene description from multiple POVs delivered in one chapter and rather fluidly describing movement and overall composition of the social scene.
Also, I think you are missing the fact that Frank Herbert wrote these characters with an understanding of Jungian psychology and archetypes - many of these characters seem quasi-mythical because they were meant to resemble myths.
You will notice that reading Jessica's critical paper on how the Bene Gesserit lost control of the Kwisatz Haderach project is a very different point of view from the tone used throughout the novel. This is because the point of view used to convey each story is largely different. I think "Chapterhouse Dune" would be more to your liking in terms of traditional POV descriptions - it is less about telling a story to an audience and more about the experience and inner motivations of a few core characters.
I just thought (and still do) that what Herbert was trying to accomplish in those scenes could have been done in a smoother fashion. I did recognize what he was trying to do in several of those scenes; I just chose not to spend much time on them, as I wasn't going to write a 2500 word essay
![](/site_media/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.
![](/site_media/images/smilies/devil.gif)
Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within)
16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM
- 1813 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM
- 962 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM
- 1121 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM
- 1055 Views
Not all themes are intended by the author. That doesn't mean they aren't there.
17/04/2010 06:54:14 PM
- 1089 Views
Re: Not all themes are intended by the author. That doesn't mean they aren't there.
17/04/2010 10:44:18 PM
- 936 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM
- 1057 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM
- 1089 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white?
18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM
- 927 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white?
19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM
- 925 Views
That was most of my issue.
21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM
- 813 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme
21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM
- 896 Views
Thank you for saying concisely the point I have been trying to make. *NM*
21/04/2010 06:34:12 PM
- 384 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM
- 869 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM
- 814 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
22/04/2010 04:08:28 PM
- 766 Views
Texts have different interpretations and Readers emphasize different aspects
22/04/2010 09:28:05 PM
- 853 Views
Re: Texts have different interpretations and Readers emphasize different aspects
23/04/2010 05:22:22 PM
- 796 Views
Re: Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme
29/04/2010 11:36:45 PM
- 882 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic.
19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM
- 934 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic.
20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM
- 790 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all.
21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM
- 718 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all.
21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM
- 917 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book
16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM
- 1289 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM*
16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM
- 415 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune
16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM
- 999 Views
There are several points to the book/series
17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM
- 1029 Views
Everyone get something different from a book
19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM
- 1201 Views
I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series
20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM
- 959 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts
17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM
- 1157 Views
Well, I enjoyed more of the characters this time around, if that helps
18/04/2010 12:14:43 AM
- 1018 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM
- 1395 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM
- 1190 Views
![](/site_media/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM
- 1119 Views
![](/site_media/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM
- 1074 Views
![](/site_media/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM
- 832 Views
![](/site_media/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM*
22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM
- 360 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM
- 1063 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM
- 809 Views
I didn't see that in Alia
21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM
- 714 Views
There were a few scenes displaying Alia's abilities/mindset. (spoilers)
22/04/2010 03:54:32 PM
- 731 Views
OK, that makes a bit more sense, as I wasn't for sure what you were arguing at first
22/04/2010 09:14:46 PM
- 839 Views
One of my favorite series!
21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM
- 734 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM
- 658 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM
- 764 Views
Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM
- 711 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM
- 772 Views