I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
Larry Send a noteboard - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM
I don't have any problem with their mention of homosexuality - Baron Harkonnen is a villain who happens to have homosexual encounters. He is not meant to represent the gay community, so I think you are over-analyzing here.
Also, their culture is based off of certain features of human society on Earth, so that woman being in maternal or domestic roles is supposed to be indicative of a throwback to more "traditional" times. After all, this is a futuristic civilization that destroyed all of it's advanced robotics and artificial intelligence - a lot of the roles we see are actually supposed to be from the Orange Catholic Bible and it's supporting texts. You'll notice in future novels that after the God Emperor takes over, gender roles become more fluid and individual, with a generalized meta-evolution of the species being a realized goal of Leto II and Ghanima.
What I think you may be missing is that the book is written in such a way that it leaves a lot to the readers' imagination while a lot of action is happening on-screen. For example, in that last scene, we dip into the thoughts of everyone involved to see that Jessica's arrival was indicated in a prophecy among the Fremen - where you see clunky dialogue, I see a scene description from multiple POVs delivered in one chapter and rather fluidly describing movement and overall composition of the social scene.
Also, I think you are missing the fact that Frank Herbert wrote these characters with an understanding of Jungian psychology and archetypes - many of these characters seem quasi-mythical because they were meant to resemble myths.
You will notice that reading Jessica's critical paper on how the Bene Gesserit lost control of the Kwisatz Haderach project is a very different point of view from the tone used throughout the novel. This is because the point of view used to convey each story is largely different. I think "Chapterhouse Dune" would be more to your liking in terms of traditional POV descriptions - it is less about telling a story to an audience and more about the experience and inner motivations of a few core characters.
Also, their culture is based off of certain features of human society on Earth, so that woman being in maternal or domestic roles is supposed to be indicative of a throwback to more "traditional" times. After all, this is a futuristic civilization that destroyed all of it's advanced robotics and artificial intelligence - a lot of the roles we see are actually supposed to be from the Orange Catholic Bible and it's supporting texts. You'll notice in future novels that after the God Emperor takes over, gender roles become more fluid and individual, with a generalized meta-evolution of the species being a realized goal of Leto II and Ghanima.
What I think you may be missing is that the book is written in such a way that it leaves a lot to the readers' imagination while a lot of action is happening on-screen. For example, in that last scene, we dip into the thoughts of everyone involved to see that Jessica's arrival was indicated in a prophecy among the Fremen - where you see clunky dialogue, I see a scene description from multiple POVs delivered in one chapter and rather fluidly describing movement and overall composition of the social scene.
Also, I think you are missing the fact that Frank Herbert wrote these characters with an understanding of Jungian psychology and archetypes - many of these characters seem quasi-mythical because they were meant to resemble myths.
You will notice that reading Jessica's critical paper on how the Bene Gesserit lost control of the Kwisatz Haderach project is a very different point of view from the tone used throughout the novel. This is because the point of view used to convey each story is largely different. I think "Chapterhouse Dune" would be more to your liking in terms of traditional POV descriptions - it is less about telling a story to an audience and more about the experience and inner motivations of a few core characters.
I just thought (and still do) that what Herbert was trying to accomplish in those scenes could have been done in a smoother fashion. I did recognize what he was trying to do in several of those scenes; I just chose not to spend much time on them, as I wasn't going to write a 2500 word essay A lot of the other points I'll be address in the next few commentaries, especially the cogent one you make about changing gender roles in the latter three novels.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.
Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within)
16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM
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Not all themes are intended by the author. That doesn't mean they aren't there.
17/04/2010 06:54:14 PM
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Re: Not all themes are intended by the author. That doesn't mean they aren't there.
17/04/2010 10:44:18 PM
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I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM
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Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM
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Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white?
18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM
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Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white?
19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM
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That was most of my issue.
21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM
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Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme
21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM
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Thank you for saying concisely the point I have been trying to make. *NM*
21/04/2010 06:34:12 PM
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A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM
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Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM
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Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
22/04/2010 04:08:28 PM
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Texts have different interpretations and Readers emphasize different aspects
22/04/2010 09:28:05 PM
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Re: Texts have different interpretations and Readers emphasize different aspects
23/04/2010 05:22:22 PM
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Re: Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme
29/04/2010 11:36:45 PM
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Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic.
19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM
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Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic.
20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM
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Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all.
21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM
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Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all.
21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM
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People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book
16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM
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Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM*
16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM
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I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune
16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM
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There are several points to the book/series
17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM
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Everyone get something different from a book
19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM
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I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series
20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM
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I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts
17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM
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Well, I enjoyed more of the characters this time around, if that helps
18/04/2010 12:14:43 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM
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I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM
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Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM
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Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM
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Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM
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I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM*
22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM
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Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM
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Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM
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I didn't see that in Alia
21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM
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There were a few scenes displaying Alia's abilities/mindset. (spoilers)
22/04/2010 03:54:32 PM
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OK, that makes a bit more sense, as I wasn't for sure what you were arguing at first
22/04/2010 09:14:46 PM
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One of my favorite series!
21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM
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I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM
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Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM
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Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM
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Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM
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