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A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present Larry Send a noteboard - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM
The planet was a key factor to the story and the power of deserts is what helped inspire the story but that doesn't mean the story was about deserts. Now I didn't read the entire 47 page interview so if there is some place there where he says it was about deserts please let me know. That would be a like saying Star Trek is about space ships because the ship is so important to the story. The story is about the people on the ship.


It's about the relationships between humans and the planetary environments. Herbert made it quite clear not just in that interview but throughout the first three novels at least that he was interested in the structures that affect things such as the development of religious, political, and social systems. Those are parts of the branch of ecology called human ecology.

Ecology played a major role in the story but I wouldn't call it a theme because there is no ecological message in the story, on the other hand there are messages about politics, religion and power.


Don't have to have a directly-stated "message" for there to be a theme; since politics, religion and power fall under the umbrella of (human) ecology in most definitions, it's hard to see what your complaint is, unless it's just a semantic quibbling.

In a 1980 interview with Omni Herbert said

"Enormous problems arise when human mistakes are made on the grand scale available to a superhero... Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of superheroes involve too many of us in disaster." [1]

Also:

"I had this theory that superheroes were disastrous for humans, that even if you postulated an infallible hero, the things this hero set in motion fell eventually into the hands of fallible mortals. What better way to destroy a civilization, society or a race than to set people into the wild oscillations which follow their turning over their critical judgment and decision-making faculties to a superhero?"


Here's a set of definitions of ecology that places that Herbert comment in a better context:

e·col·o·gy (?-k?l'?-j?)
n. pl. e·col·o·gies

1.

1.

The science of the relationships between organisms and their environments. Also called bionomics.
2.

The relationship between organisms and their environment.
2.

The branch of sociology that is concerned with studying the relationships between human groups and their physical and social environments. Also called human ecology.

That is a theme


Yes, it is one theme. Another would be how political/social/religious institutions develop and how they are related to their environs and how these institutions shape and are shaped by what is around them. I seem to recall an observation in one of the first three books (one that I've seen echoed in several other places) that it is no surprise that the three dominant monotheistic religions on this planet today developed in steppe or desert-like environments. Several social practices are also affected by the surroundings and ways political power is structured (as Leto II and the Preacher discuss in Children of Dune) is based on practical consequences of physical surroundings.

I just see those causal relationships being part of an ecology, same as I would view modern-day political parties as being part of an ecological system. And those ecological structures and how they affect the narrative history seems to be a theme in the Herbert novels.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within) - 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM 1858 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM 999 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM 1170 Views
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I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM 1095 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM 1142 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM 958 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM 984 Views
That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM 855 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 06:33:14 PM 834 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 29/04/2010 11:38:26 PM 811 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme - 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM 952 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM 914 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM 862 Views
Good points - 22/04/2010 09:19:45 PM 895 Views
Re: Good points - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM 855 Views
when you call it human ecology I come much closer to agreeing - 22/04/2010 02:16:58 PM 874 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM 980 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM 830 Views
You're not using "archaic" correctly - 20/04/2010 10:07:31 PM 851 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM 760 Views
doesn't that regulate the point down to interesting trivia? - 21/04/2010 02:36:38 PM 877 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM 953 Views
Funny the things people focus on - 21/04/2010 11:24:59 PM 853 Views
Re: Funny the things people focus on - 23/04/2010 05:28:54 PM 855 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book - 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM 1339 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM* - 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM 432 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune - 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM 1046 Views
Ecology goes more than one way - 17/04/2010 12:12:45 AM 991 Views
There are several points to the book/series - 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM 1064 Views
Everyone get something different from a book - 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM 1250 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts - 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM 1193 Views
I hope you got to Darwi Odrade - 21/04/2010 03:44:27 PM 871 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM 1435 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM 1236 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM 1161 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM 1116 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM 877 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM* - 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM 372 Views
And Dune Messiah as well was serialized at first, in Galaxy *NM* - 22/04/2010 09:31:54 PM 382 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM 1102 Views
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I didn't see that in Alia - 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM 771 Views
One of my favorite series! - 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM 779 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM 703 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM 816 Views
His style doesn't appeal to me as much, unfortunately - 22/04/2010 09:17:21 PM 702 Views
You might want to track down his short stories one day... - 23/04/2010 02:06:09 PM 928 Views
Children of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 22/04/2010 06:47:04 AM 910 Views
See...I think I made a mistake in my reading of Dune - 22/04/2010 07:26:28 AM 879 Views
Depends - 22/04/2010 08:01:39 AM 791 Views
Re: Depends - 22/04/2010 11:12:15 PM 1042 Views
read something else - 23/04/2010 07:49:34 PM 776 Views
LA Times article on Dune (4/18/2010) - 23/04/2010 10:59:00 AM 734 Views
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Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM 823 Views
I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 29/04/2010 09:44:07 PM 798 Views
Re: I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 10/05/2010 04:10:49 AM 1129 Views
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Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM 959 Views

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