A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
Larry Send a noteboard - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM
The planet was a key factor to the story and the power of deserts is what helped inspire the story but that doesn't mean the story was about deserts. Now I didn't read the entire 47 page interview so if there is some place there where he says it was about deserts please let me know. That would be a like saying Star Trek is about space ships because the ship is so important to the story. The story is about the people on the ship.
It's about the relationships between humans and the planetary environments. Herbert made it quite clear not just in that interview but throughout the first three novels at least that he was interested in the structures that affect things such as the development of religious, political, and social systems. Those are parts of the branch of ecology called human ecology.
Ecology played a major role in the story but I wouldn't call it a theme because there is no ecological message in the story, on the other hand there are messages about politics, religion and power.
Don't have to have a directly-stated "message" for there to be a theme; since politics, religion and power fall under the umbrella of (human) ecology in most definitions, it's hard to see what your complaint is, unless it's just a semantic quibbling.
In a 1980 interview with Omni Herbert said
"Enormous problems arise when human mistakes are made on the grand scale available to a superhero... Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of superheroes involve too many of us in disaster." [1]
Also:
"I had this theory that superheroes were disastrous for humans, that even if you postulated an infallible hero, the things this hero set in motion fell eventually into the hands of fallible mortals. What better way to destroy a civilization, society or a race than to set people into the wild oscillations which follow their turning over their critical judgment and decision-making faculties to a superhero?"
Here's a set of definitions of ecology that places that Herbert comment in a better context:
e·col·o·gy (?-k?l'?-j?)
n. pl. e·col·o·gies
1.
1.
The science of the relationships between organisms and their environments. Also called bionomics.
2.
The relationship between organisms and their environment.
2.
The branch of sociology that is concerned with studying the relationships between human groups and their physical and social environments. Also called human ecology.
n. pl. e·col·o·gies
1.
1.
The science of the relationships between organisms and their environments. Also called bionomics.
2.
The relationship between organisms and their environment.
2.
The branch of sociology that is concerned with studying the relationships between human groups and their physical and social environments. Also called human ecology.
That is a theme
Yes, it is one theme. Another would be how political/social/religious institutions develop and how they are related to their environs and how these institutions shape and are shaped by what is around them. I seem to recall an observation in one of the first three books (one that I've seen echoed in several other places) that it is no surprise that the three dominant monotheistic religions on this planet today developed in steppe or desert-like environments. Several social practices are also affected by the surroundings and ways political power is structured (as Leto II and the Preacher discuss in Children of Dune) is based on practical consequences of physical surroundings.
I just see those causal relationships being part of an ecology, same as I would view modern-day political parties as being part of an ecological system. And those ecological structures and how they affect the narrative history seems to be a theme in the Herbert novels.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie
Je suis méchant.
Je suis méchant.
Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within)
16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM
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Not all themes are intended by the author. That doesn't mean they aren't there.
17/04/2010 06:54:14 PM
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Re: Not all themes are intended by the author. That doesn't mean they aren't there.
17/04/2010 10:44:18 PM
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I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM
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Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological"
18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM
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Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white?
18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM
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Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white?
19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM
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That was most of my issue.
21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM
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Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme
21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM
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Thank you for saying concisely the point I have been trying to make. *NM*
21/04/2010 06:34:12 PM
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A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM
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Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM
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Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present
22/04/2010 04:08:28 PM
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Texts have different interpretations and Readers emphasize different aspects
22/04/2010 09:28:05 PM
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Re: Texts have different interpretations and Readers emphasize different aspects
23/04/2010 05:22:22 PM
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Re: Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme
29/04/2010 11:36:45 PM
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Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic.
19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM
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Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic.
20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM
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Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all.
21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM
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Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all.
21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM
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People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book
16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM
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Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM*
16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM
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I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune
16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM
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There are several points to the book/series
17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM
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Everyone get something different from a book
19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM
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I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series
20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM
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I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts
17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM
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Well, I enjoyed more of the characters this time around, if that helps
18/04/2010 12:14:43 AM
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Re: Frank Herbert, Dune
17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM
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I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM
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Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM
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Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM
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Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom
22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM
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I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM*
22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM
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Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM
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Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM
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I didn't see that in Alia
21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM
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There were a few scenes displaying Alia's abilities/mindset. (spoilers)
22/04/2010 03:54:32 PM
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OK, that makes a bit more sense, as I wasn't for sure what you were arguing at first
22/04/2010 09:14:46 PM
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One of my favorite series!
21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM
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I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM
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Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it
22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM
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Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM
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Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read)
29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM
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