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Re: some respectful disagreement, if you don't mind Cannoli Send a noteboard - 17/04/2010 08:22:22 PM

Still, Min's vision from book 1 on, and implications from RJ's approach to the Creator vs DO struggle, say that he really should have them on his side. The fireflies hold their own against the great void when they are stronger, united, and can bring more numbers together. The One Power always made the best works when male and female halves were used together.
And at this point, the White Tower is the single greatest obstacle to this goal.

Basically, the good guys gotta work together to beat the Shadow. Everyone who believes that the DO musn't win, be they Tinker, Whitecloak, or even lousy, foolish Seanchan,
The Tinkers refuse to fight, eat the good guys' food and the SEANCHAN are foolish? I would only call them foolish in their continued sustenance of the Tinkers.

At the least, the WT (if they don't act like self-indulgent & mean children)
My central premise revolves around the fact that there is little indication of anything else.

will not interfere with him, e.g., two separate but simultaneous attacks on a Dark stronghold. At the best, they might be able to beat a lot of bad guys off handily.
Perhaps experience guiding circles is the best thing the WT can offer, besides trained numbers.
Bah. What experience guiding circles? Everything in Egwene's WT PoV suggests the sisters have little to do with one another for the most part. What tasks to the Aes Sedai commonly undertake that are out of the reach of an ordinary sister's strength? The only advantage they have is their knowledge of the linking process, now disseminated to the other two major groups. There is nothing to a circle that requires "guiding" or "experience" to fight as a circle, all you need is one person with knowledge of the linking technique. Beyond that, a circle is simply the leader with some more strength. Adding Nynaeve to a circle led by Egwene does not make the circle capable of Healing unless Egwene allows Nynaeve to lead, in which case the circle now no longer has great ability with Earth weaves. There is no leadership or guiding involved. All you need is the ability to form a link and pass control, and the minds, wills and Talents of all the other members are now irrelevant. This means that Aes Sedai are an inherently bad choice to lead any circles, since you take combat trained channelers like the Asha'man or (ex)damane & former sul'dam; combat capable channelers with some experience channeling in life or death emergencies like the Windfinders; and combat capable channelers selected for courage and adaptability from a warrior culture; and you place all of these under the restrictions of a Three-Oath-bound channeler, who is used to an unassailable socially dominant position, great luxury, and vast ignorance of the realities of combat! And Aes Sedai are more likely than any group to insist on control of circles based solely on their presumption of superiority. The most likely reason of any of the other groups to insist on controlling a circle is institutional distrust of Aes Sedai, or disdain for the sisters' attitude.

The ONLY other factor in a linked circle that might require additional ability or technique is the need to combine saidar and saidin when leading a mixed circle. Except the greatest feat in the history of channeling was accomplished by a man in the first link in which he had ever participated. So much for the necessity of experience or superior training! Even if experience is better than going into it cold, what sisters have experience linking with men? For the most part, that answer is those bonded to Asha'man, one way or another, all of whom are part of Rand's entourage, either through the Black Tower or Cadsuane. Even the supposed experience of Cadsuane's crew from the Cleansing is irrelevant, as all of the women to lead circles in that business died in tGS.

I guess the WT is like almost every major institution in the series: they are old and comfortable and prone to over-estimating themselves while under-estimating others. One king of Cairhien thought he could make a nifty wood throne, and another thought killing a gleeman was no problem - they both died badly. Not only were none of them prepared to deal with the Dragon or the changes he would bring, none of them were nearly as strong or invulnerable as they believed (Aiel possibly excepted). Perhaps RJ was very intent on making this point - and the WT is an analogue for the Catholic Church (the Rome-governed organizational part of it). The WT matches its real-life counterpart for arrogance and adherence to certain antiquated mentalities that are neither beneficial nor helpful to its supposed ultimate goal ("evil gets whupped" ).
What an absurd and gratuitous reference. Considering most of a contemporary history of the RC Church would be chock full of recriminations against every attempt by the Church to actually TRY "whupping" what they saw as evil, where do you get off comparing the White Tower's insistance on supremacy to the oldest and most charitable organization in the real world?
The knee-jerk antiCatholic bigotry of fantasy writers who try to make the Church collaborators with the fantasy evil injected into their alternate realities on the one hand, and accuse them of fearing change, and being xenophobic on the other is absurd enough (on what actual grounds, for instance, would anyone base the decisions of the writers of V or the Worldwar books to have the Catholic Church support and endorse non-human creatures? All of the common criticisms levied against the Church - anachronistic, anti-scientific, slow to change, conservative, bigoted, self-absorbed - suggest a position of reflexive opposition to the sudden presence of aliens and their unexplained technology and furtiveness. As writers of books with GOOD aliens & technology find all too plausible), without you levying basisless comparisons to a setting unconnected to the real world just for the purposes of getting in digs at the Church.

The White Tower is full of a ton of self-important people who must unlearn many of the traditions that they blindly accepted as a way of making themselves feel more important. Still, when a house in the center of your town is burning, you'll see people who hate each other pass off buckets of water to make sure that everyone is safe.
And some people who sit in their own house in blissful indifference accusing the servants of pilfering, until the flames reach their street. And other people who complain that the organic formation of the bucket brigade is too haphazard and try to reorganize it, or fume about allowing criminals to participate with no police officers detailed to keep an eye on them so they can be rounded up once the crisis is over. The White Tower consists entirely of too many of both sorts. As I noted in my original post, the ones who are likely to have pitched in and even donated their own buckets and wells and pumps are not the ones fussing around with the rebels or the loyalists. The entire struggle can best be compared to a debate over the placement of the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Depends - 16/04/2010 06:50:53 AM 609 Views
I don't necessarily disagree... - 16/04/2010 02:54:28 PM 578 Views
some respectful disagreement, if you don't mind - 17/04/2010 04:04:32 AM 574 Views
Re: some respectful disagreement, if you don't mind - 17/04/2010 08:22:22 PM 608 Views
good points about the linking - 17/04/2010 11:13:21 PM 563 Views
Rand will need the tower once Egwene is done with it! - 28/04/2010 06:23:13 AM 467 Views
This should be... fun! - 28/04/2010 07:09:16 AM 461 Views

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