Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: But who did the work? by ranagrande

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Re: But who did the work? ranagrande Send a noteboard - 04/09/2009 01:32:19 PM

First of all you complain that the AS contributions don't count because they were ordered by someone else. That's like saying that if someone asks you to write up a report, it's not your report, and your work doesnt count because you were asked to do it by someone else...excuse my french but that's bushwa.

Let's expand on that report example. Someone asks me to do a report, and I do it. I am an amazing report writer, so of course it turns out to be one of the best reports ever. So, way to go me, right? But! I never would have written the report had I not been asked to. If I had decided not to write it, that first person would take their request to someone else who would, or might end up doing the report themselves. The report would still get done, with or without me. I like to think that my report was better than the one someone else would have done, but of course we have no way to know.

Then you complain that if they were attached to some group or another their accomplishments don't matter. Also bushwa, and AS accomplishment is an AS accomplishment. Finally if you can't falsely negate their accomplishments any other way you try to trivialize them.

The vast majority of the accomplishments (even the ones that are supposed to be impressive) by the vast majority of the characters (not just Aes Sedai) are, in fact, trivial.

You say that discovering what the AoL said was impossible doesn't matter because if you are channeling anyway why not just shield them? Let me ask you something, would you prefer to have some real knowledge, (type and direction of the flow) or would you rather be needlessly aggressive, anger a possible ally and maybe even end up in deep doo doo? Say for instance the Ashaman is doing something beneficial (holding back a flood, putting out a fire etc) and you shield him? Kinda counter productive no? Me I'd rather find out what the ashaman was doing first before I started any aggressive moves.

Well no, I would only use the shield in a hostile situation. With a friend or ally, I would probably just nicely ask what they were doing. I know real communication is taboo in the Wheel of Time, but it can have profound results. Oh, and if I found myself faced with a natural disaster like the floods or fires you mention, I think I'd try to help contain them rather than waste my time and energy channeling inquisitively at the nearby Asha'man.

Then you say that the BA hunters are nothing because they've had little success. It is true they've had only a little success in one sense but also true that they have done something that no one in the tower has ever done, and that is uncover actual BA operatives in the Tower. And they are doing this even knowing that ANY mistake they make will be their last. I'd say that's very courageous.

I never said that they were nothing. Yes, they are courageous and they put most of the Aes Sedai in the series to shame. However, as you admit, they don't get many results. I give them credit for trying, but that doesn't make them relevant in the grand scheme of things.

Let's also look at some of your individual inanities.

The only thing that Moiraine did to save Lan after her death was pass the bond to Myrelle. It was Myrelle and Naiso who did all the work.

Actually, I think I'll give you this one. It is nice to see the rare Aes Sedai that still uses her abilities to help people, even if was only to grant a close friend's dying wish.

I'll skip all the instances where you say "Rand (or Cadsuane or anyone else for that matter) told them to" they did the work, they deserve the credit.

I disagree, as mentioned in the first paragraph.

Cairhein: Samitsu healed Dobraine, something very very few other AS could do. BTW even tho she is part of Cadsuane's group, Caddy never told her to heal Dobraine. Sashelle is governing Cairhein during Dobraine's convalesence, she was a Red from the Tower and had been stilled by Rand. Would you have taken on that task, covering for someone who had been declared regent by the man that stilled and captured you? Bighearted of her I'd say.

Considering that the man who stilled and captured me was someone that I had shielded and captured, and that one of his underlings had recently un-stilled me (which I knew to be impossible), I might very well be amenable to the cause even without the taveren effect. Samitsu is a good example though. It's especially nice to see Yellows who actually heal people, since so few of them do.

That pretty much covers what I said previously. If I understand what you are saying, it's that if you are an Aes Sedai, your actions don't amount to anything unless it is completely spontaneous. Also your actions don't count if you are aligned with either Moiraine, Cadsuane, the Wonder Girls, Rand, or the Rebels, and unless you have met with unparalleled success. In other words "The AS are superfluous as long as you ignore the ones who aren't".

I can tell that that is written with sarcasm, but it's really not too far off. There are perhaps two dozen Aes Sedai in the series that I would not say are completely irrelevant.

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You know... it feels like the Aes Sedai are pretty superflouous beetnemesis - 02/09/2009 09:48:19 PM 1179 Views

Y'know, the paralells betwen the Aes Sedai in the White Tower... vandevere - 02/09/2009 10:46:29 PM 766 Views

Well said. Hadn't really thought of it that way before

*NM* Bryce - 03/09/2009 12:01:30 AM 483 Views

That is the inspiration for the Aes Sedai that RJ used - I can't find the article, though. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/09/2009 02:39:14 PM 711 Views

When I was reading this I was thinking of the paralells between the white tower and Tashmere - 03/09/2009 02:47:33 AM 915 Views

And yet the WT has been THE single greatest force for continuity and civilization. NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 03:37:14 AM 787 Views

Re: And yet the WT has been THE single greatest force for continuity and civilization. Corwin - 03/09/2009 05:46:13 AM 746 Views

Really? fionwe1987 - 03/09/2009 05:52:38 AM 716 Views

Re: Really? Corwin - 03/09/2009 06:03:13 AM 682 Views

So lets add a few more NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 11:42:48 AM 684 Views

most of these are accounted for above ranagrande - 03/09/2009 02:18:01 PM 757 Views

Just because we don't know all their names, doesn't mean their effectiveness on the Pattern was less RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/09/2009 03:19:41 PM 720 Views

But who did the work? NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 05:37:00 PM 609 Views

While these are good, none of it is because of the White Tower beetnemesis - 03/09/2009 05:43:56 PM 632 Views

So if Elaida didn't order it, it doesn't count? NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 07:29:20 PM 618 Views

Actually I think that's his point ranagrande - 04/09/2009 01:40:37 PM 701 Views

Spot-on beetnemesis - 04/09/2009 08:56:30 PM 530 Views

Re: Actually I think that's his point NaClH2O - 05/09/2009 03:17:25 AM 570 Views

Re: But who did the work? ranagrande - 04/09/2009 01:32:19 PM 645 Views

Only one point because obviously your mind is made up. NaClH2O - 05/09/2009 06:13:23 AM 671 Views

well, yeah ranagrande - 05/09/2009 02:33:51 PM 739 Views

In that case, Rand, Mat, Perrin... all of them are superfluous. fionwe1987 - 05/09/2009 03:03:07 PM 610 Views

Re: In that case, Rand, Mat, Perrin... all of them are superfluous. NaClH2O - 05/09/2009 04:57:44 PM 606 Views

No, fionwe1987 is absolutely right! ranagrande - 05/09/2009 05:13:39 PM 565 Views

I'm glad the real world disagrees with you NaClH2O - 05/09/2009 05:05:50 PM 608 Views

I'm not convinced that it does ranagrande - 05/09/2009 05:44:10 PM 709 Views

I don't understand your point Sidious - 03/09/2009 04:25:22 PM 631 Views

Re: I don't understand your point Corwin - 03/09/2009 09:09:38 PM 680 Views

Re: I don't understand your point Sidious - 03/09/2009 09:23:53 PM 612 Views

Re: I don't understand your point Corwin - 05/09/2009 09:02:47 AM 813 Views

Re: I don't understand your point NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 09:49:58 PM 591 Views

I was talking about the WT specifically, and only during recent years. It's Gotta be the Shadow, beetnemesis - 03/09/2009 05:39:11 PM 609 Views

So what you are really saying is that if you ignore over 2/3rds of the AS the rest aren't doing much NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 06:07:23 PM 554 Views

I'm talking about the organization as a whole beetnemesis - 03/09/2009 10:07:37 PM 624 Views

No you are talking about Elaida NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 10:32:59 PM 547 Views

You just made our point... fionwe1987 - 04/09/2009 12:49:44 AM 644 Views

Well, because most of her actions infringe on that "bubble" beetnemesis - 04/09/2009 09:00:52 PM 549 Views

Not at all... fionwe1987 - 04/09/2009 09:23:09 PM 658 Views

WT has been THE single greatest force for stagancy and lack of development. Lohikaarme - 09/09/2009 08:58:58 AM 576 Views

Like I said earlier the AS are superfluous except the ones who aren't superfluous.

NaClH2O - 09/09/2009 11:55:47 AM 651 Views

To a certain extent ajsr1982 - 03/09/2009 11:33:30 AM 793 Views

Definitely. And Egwene is in denial. beetnemesis - 03/09/2009 05:53:14 PM 635 Views

Some pretty big blanket statements NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 10:24:50 PM 749 Views

Without the Tower Voscaia Sedai - 03/09/2009 02:05:09 PM 544 Views

Actually, I think Verin is a good metaphor here. nossy - 03/09/2009 07:59:46 PM 590 Views

Agrees with Nossy NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 10:44:06 PM 885 Views

That's mostly what I was trying to say beetnemesis - 04/09/2009 09:03:52 PM 549 Views

Re: That's mostly what I was trying to say NaClH2O - 05/09/2009 03:33:46 AM 890 Views

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<quote id="9009">
<quote id="8165">First of all you complain that the AS contributions don't count because they were ordered by someone else. That's like saying that if someone asks you to write up a report, it's not your report, and your work doesnt count because you were asked to do it by someone else...excuse my french but that's bushwa. </quote>Let's expand on that report example.  Someone asks me to do a report, and I do it.  I am an amazing report writer, so of course it turns out to be one of the best reports ever.  So, way to go me, right?  But!  I never would have written the report had I not been asked to.  If I had decided not to write it, that first person would take their request to someone else who would, or might end up doing the report themselves.  The report would still get done, with or without me.  I like to think that my report was better than the one someone else would have done, but of course we have no way to know.

<quote id="8165">Then you complain that if they were attached to some group or another their accomplishments don't matter. Also bushwa, and AS accomplishment is an AS accomplishment. Finally if you can't falsely negate their accomplishments any other way you try to trivialize them. </quote>The vast majority of the accomplishments (even the ones that are supposed to be impressive) by the vast majority of the characters (not just Aes Sedai) are, in fact, trivial.

<quote id="8165">You say that discovering what the AoL said was impossible doesn't matter because if you are channeling anyway why not just shield them? Let me ask you something, would you prefer to have some real knowledge, (type and direction of the flow) or would you rather be needlessly aggressive, anger a possible ally and maybe even end up in deep doo doo? Say for instance the Ashaman is doing something beneficial (holding back a flood, putting out a fire etc) and you shield him? Kinda counter productive no? Me I'd rather find out what the ashaman was doing first before I started any aggressive moves. </quote>Well no, I would only use the shield in a hostile situation.  With a friend or ally, I would probably just nicely ask what they were doing.  I know real communication is taboo in the Wheel of Time, but it can have profound results.  Oh, and if I found myself faced with a natural disaster like the floods or fires you mention, I think I'd try to help contain them rather than waste my time and energy channeling inquisitively at the nearby Asha'man.

<quote id="8165">Then you say that the BA hunters are nothing because they've had little success. It is true they've had only a little success in one sense but also true that they have done something that no one in the tower has ever done, and that is uncover actual BA operatives in the Tower. And they are doing this even knowing that <i><b>ANY</b></i> mistake they make will be their last. I'd say that's very courageous. </quote>I never said that they were nothing.  Yes, they are courageous and they put most of the Aes Sedai in the series to shame.  However, as you admit, they don't get many results.  I give them credit for trying, but that doesn't make them relevant in the grand scheme of things.

<quote id="8165">Let's also look at some of your individual inanities.</quote>
<quote id="8165">The only thing that Moiraine did to save Lan after her death was pass the bond to Myrelle. It was Myrelle and Naiso who did all the work. </quote>Actually, I think I'll give you this one.  It is nice to see the rare Aes Sedai that still uses her abilities to help people, even if was only to grant a close friend's dying wish.

<quote id="8165">I'll skip all the instances where you say "Rand (or Cadsuane or anyone else for that matter) told them to" they did the work, they deserve the credit.</quote>I disagree, as mentioned in the first paragraph.

<quote id="8165">Cairhein: Samitsu healed Dobraine, something very very few other AS could do. BTW even tho she is part of Cadsuane's group, Caddy never told her to heal Dobraine. Sashelle is governing Cairhein during Dobraine's convalesence, she was a Red from the Tower and had been stilled by Rand. Would you have taken on that task, covering for someone who had been declared regent by the man that stilled and captured you? Bighearted of her I'd say.</quote>Considering that the man who stilled and captured me was someone that I had shielded and captured, and that one of his underlings had recently un-stilled me (which I knew to be impossible), I might very well be amenable to the cause even without the taveren effect.  Samitsu is a good example though.  It's especially nice to see Yellows who actually heal people, since so few of them do.

<quote id="8165">That pretty much covers what I said previously. If I understand what you are saying, it's that if you are an Aes Sedai, your actions don't amount to anything unless it is completely spontaneous. Also your actions don't count if you are aligned with either Moiraine, Cadsuane, the Wonder Girls, Rand, or the Rebels, and unless you have met with unparalleled success. In other words "The AS are superfluous as long as you ignore the ones who aren't".</quote>I can tell that that is written with sarcasm, but it's really not too far off.  There are perhaps two dozen Aes Sedai in the series that I would not say are completely irrelevant.
</quote>

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