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fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 15/02/2010 10:08:48 PM
Elayne is not an elected leader. Those are supposed to be responsive to the wishes of their followers. Yet, between the right-of-birth queen and the elected Amyrlin, which one has shown more concern over the opinions and wishes of the ordinary people and adherence to the principle of rule by law? Elayne. As far as Egwene is concerned, hers is the only opinion that matters, except insofar as someone has the political clout to make life difficult for her.

What has Egwene done that is against the wishes of her followers? Allow older women to enter the Tower? Raise Elayne and Nynaeve? Refuse a rescue from the Tower? Elayne has overridden her followers when she knew she was right, as had Egwene. For the rest, both have shown a remarkable ear for what people who follow them want.
And you're right, Egwene is an elected ruler, unlike Elayne. Which was my point... Egwene had to make speeches because she needs to bring independent women who don't like to follow orders to see things her way, to stop them from bickering, to make up for the deficiencies they've shown as an organization. Elayne doesn't face such issues, and hence had no reason o give political speeches.
Yes, because political speeches ALWAYS come true. 8}

When given by major protagonists in a fantasy novel? Yes.
But Elaida had similar intentions.

No she did not. Sure, she wanted a powerful Tower to counter the Shadow, but the way she meant to achieve it was in direct contrast to Egwene's. Where Elaida banned an Ajah opposed to her, Egwene prevented the Reds from disintegrating and showed them favor. Where Elaida wanted to strip away each Rebel from their Ajahs and make them submit to her will for decades, Egwene has handed out no punishments at all, despite feeling strongly that Elaida's supporters had bungled.
So why is it so necessary for Egwene to win.

Because she has a laudable goal for the Tower, and is not a megalomaniac like Elaida, and can hence actually achieve that goal?
And as for her determination to take the Tower to glory, how does that make her any better than the Hunters of the Horn who we keep seeing being held in contempt for basically the same thing as Egwene suggests in her speech - win glory by contributing to the Last Battle? Actually her speech suggests she will be a nuisance, angling to get an impressive role for the Tower, and trying to win big victories, rather than shutting her mouth and managing the Tower and keeping Aes Sedai out of Rand's hair.

Why the hell should she, or anyone else, be satisfied with merely being out of Rand's hair? What is wrong in wanting the glory of helping defeat the Dark One?
The Tower has worked to fight the Shadow for millenia. Just because it has done a woefully bad job of it in the past few years doesn't mean it shouldn't aspire to be back as a pain in the Dark One's butt.
I was referring to his saying that Perrin has everything in hand. Elayne does not understand the issues of the "rebellion" yet so she is not committed to action, and Perrin has no intention of contesting her rule over the Two Rivers. He said as much in tGS. RtDB!

Perrin has everything in hand in his camp. We have no clue about how his interaction with Elayne will go, so I'm only going to base my arguments on what Perrin worries will happen, and what Elayne has said she'd do.
So you have just refuted your own objection.

How so? I don't for a moment think Andor is useless. I merely pointed out that by the reasoning you used to claim the Tower was useless, so was Andor.
I believe both will play central roles in the Last Battle.
Exactly. It's a personal quest, not Egwene handling a major part of Rand's fight elsewhere, as Moiraine alludes of others right before Alcair Dal.

No it is not. The Tower, as an organization, can unite the nations. Rand has them in a tenuous grip, but the Tower has the ability to smooth away his difficulties.
Further, Egwene's stated motivation to support the Rebellion is to keep Elaida out of Rand's hair, in which she has succeeded admirably. Elaida's wish to rescue the sisters Rand capured in Dumai's Wells, as well as her inability to send more sisters to help Toviene against the BT are a direct consequence of Egwene's actions which made the Rebels start moving towards Tar Valon.
Thus, Egwene directly kept the Tower out of Rand's hair, essentially fighting his fight against the Tower establishment for him.
Now that she has united the Tower, she has already ensured that the united resources of the Tower are not going to be used to impede Rand.
Elayne claims that Rand's declaration in favor of her was what "restrained" Dyelin. Dyelin couldn't do anything about Rand, that was why she did not try to oust him. She and her recalcitrant buddies cooperated in securing Andor from Elenia & co, but that does not make them cooperative towards Rand. Dyelin has personal ties to Elayne, and a genuine reluctance to assume the throne, which is why she was not out causing trouble with the others.

And which of these actions were desired by the Aes Sedai? They wanted her to help oust Rand. She refused, thus disproving your idea that she'd easily bend to Aes Sedai influence.
She said that problems could be solved, and only as a point of comparison with "Elaida's" decree warning people away from Rand. Objectively speaking, she is right. She did NOT encourage him to kneel to Rand, and we see from the reactions of Siuan & Myrelle to the rumor that he has knelt to Elaida that she IS correct in that it would solve problems. She was the one who first voiced the idea that Salidar's best claim over the Tower would have been a tie to Rand, back in tFoH. She never said she wanted Rand there in the big picture, she merely noted that it would be an advantage in the struggle for control of the Tower, but Rand would not even do that to help his childhood friend, much less a former Red who wanted him arrested.

She said problems would be solved if he knelt to Egwene. Which is still a great deal more than Egwene has ever wished for or expcted! Frankly, it is a ridiculous idea, and Egwene seems to have not even conceived it. But Elayne trusts and believes in Egwene as Amyrlin enough that she hopes her boyfriend, the Dragon Reborn himself, will kneel to her. Which serves to prove my point that Elayne is going to be much more strongly aligned with and influenced by the Tower.
Sure, she won't do anything that is bad for Andor (nor will Egwene ask her to), but at the same time, she's automatically going to want good stuff for the Tower too. Which is not something that can be said of all the Queens of Andor. None of them were Aes Sedai, and none of them had such a close personal relationship with the Amyrlin Seat.
The sheer arrogance of assuming she is in anyway qualified to give him any of the guidance he needs suggests exactly the problem we skeptics have with the Egewnist scenario that she is going to peacefully cooperate with Rand. He is her superior politically, in governing, in military matters and in the affairs of the world. In what area can she guide him? Elayne's wish to guide him was grounded on his then-inexperienced state, and her lifetime of training for what he was going through, or her being born and raised to rule the country he was currently trying to administer. Nynaeve has the perspective of an older friend who watched him grow up. What does Egwene have? She less experienced in everything except Tower-specific politics, and he needs no guidance for manuevering in the Hall. After all, shouldn't Egwene be solving those problems FOR him?

What can she guide him in? How to lead without appearing to bludgeon. How to deal with the frustration of fractious followers. How not to let the weight of responsibility make you insensitive to your inner humanity. How to be in firm command of yourself so that you can take the worst sort of punishment and still not be broken by it.
In so many ways, her problems were akin to Rand's, only smaller in scale. Yet, she succeeded in tackling them better than Rand did.
Aligned, but not ruled by. Fellow-travelers, not a Tar Valon protectorate. She herself says Egwene's authority over her would be personal only, which she views as a useful method of humility. She asserts that she will not give her land to the Tower. Nynaeve notes that Elayne believes in the Tower, "but she believed in Rand, too..." Elayne has never taken the Tower's side over Rand, if only because she has been too removed from the conflict between them to pick, but she was the one arguing for the rebels to proclaim their loyalty to Rand, she was the one who sought something to make the Hall support Rand. She has never tried to use Rand to help the rebels.

I might note that Egwene has not taken the Tower's side over Rand either.
But Andor was never the Tower's protectorate. The one instance where Morghase allowed Andoran interests to be subsumed to the Tower's, Siuan and Elaida had to talk with her for ages, and for all we know, she only caved because of the enticing possibility of a stable neighbor. Elayne is going to be no different than Morhase in opposing the Tower when required, only more effective because she is protected by the Tower's own laws about not interfering with another sister's business.
Which is why I brought up the issue! Did you READ the last paragraph of my original post? The point of the post was not to rip Egwene, it was to point out that the Tower's contribution will be something new and unexpected, because as far as things are trending now, there was no point.

And my point is that this is so obvious, there was no need for all the verbiage. Its like writing a detailed, pointless, and at many instances stupid analysis of Rand's actions against the Shadow till this book to conclude that Rand will need a new strategy to defeat the Dark One. DUH!
You have an absolutely fascinating definition of "on his side."

No I don't. I have a very normal definition of the phrase. You're the one who twists it to justify your rabid hatred of Egwene.
How? What has he done that was wrong? Given all that Taim has accomplished for him, giving him his head is an obvious move. The readers think it was dumb, because of dramatic irony, and Egwene thinks its dumb because it's male channelers, which creep her out everytime she witnesses Rand channeling in her PoVs. Neither of which is a valid reason for Rand to antagonize his arguably most valuable non-ta'veren follower by micromanaging.

Micromanaging? Don't raise a straw-man to argue your point. Rand didn't have to micromanage anything. A few trips to check on Taim when suspicious activity is being reported is only sensible, and requires no more than a few hours.
Egwene, of all the female protagonists, has shown the most sensible view of the Asha'man, even before she knew saidin was cleansed. She thought it foolish to try and destroy it before the Last Battle, she sent Logain to Rand, and she actually tried to help Rand learn to channel!
Screw him. Logain's an egotistical d-bag, who falsely claimed to be the Dragon Reborn to seek glory and power, got thousands of people killed and currently goes around publicly detracting and undermining Rand. Harine & Shalon were at the Cleansing. Their version of events would be contradicted by Logain telling them his fantasy that the Creator intervened, and can only serve to make Rand or his preferred Sea Folk associates look bad to the MotS for claiming he did it. And Logain has no reason for his position. He has been the witness and beneficiary to one feat of channeling presumed impossible, like every other channeler in the world, he knows of the use of the Choedan Kal on the day the taint was removed, and he knows that the taint ended up on the Power through human action, whereas the Creator's intervention is completely unprecedented in human experience. He could easily find out the truth by questioning Rand's entourage at Algarin's manor, but he prefers to ignore the truth to maintain his self-image as a near-equal to Rand. Instead, he questions the sisters to confirm Min's viewing of his glory. The man's a total ass, and I'd almost rather Rand killed him than Taim.

What the hell is the point of this rant? Where the hell did you get an idea that I think Logain is a good man and deserves power?
Really, cool down and read what I wrote! The guy may be the world's worst douche bag, but that doesn't change the fact that he has a significant following among the Asha'man. Rand needs to work with him to remove Taim, and that is inescapable fact.
Only Elaida was supposed to be deceived by that line! The prophecy went "The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire and sisters will walk its grounds." They ARE and have been walking its grounds for months now. If sisters do play a role in that, it will be the party sent by Elaida to destroy the Black Tower, and/or (heh heh) the Reds' delegation, neither of which has anything to do with Egwene's rule.

So, two totally unrelated events are now mentioned in the same sentence? That is absurd!
Elaida was very wrong in her thinking that the fifty sisters she sent would be the cause of the blood and fire in the Black Tower. But the clear implication of her foretelling is that Aes Sedai will be involved in the event.
Now, as things stand, six Red sisters are likely trapped there, and that by itself will be reason enough for Egwene to start looking at the Black Tower. Add to that that 47 Rebel Aes Sedai are also likely trapped in the BT, and a WT-BT confrontation is almost assured.
Nope. Even if she is, it would depend on the nature of her part. It might just as easily turn out to be something personal, rather than something she needed the Tower for.

Why wouldn't she use the considerable resources of her Tower to defeat an enemy? Your argument is irrational.
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So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? - 07/02/2010 04:41:58 AM 1799 Views
I think the breaking of the tower was.... - 07/02/2010 07:55:48 AM 764 Views
Nice idea, that does seem to make sense in hindsight. - 07/02/2010 06:18:35 PM 559 Views
Yes, but that isn't the point. - 08/02/2010 04:14:32 AM 649 Views
Re: Yes, but that isn't the point. - 08/02/2010 04:40:52 AM 620 Views
YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? - 08/02/2010 04:55:46 AM 549 Views
Re: YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? - 08/02/2010 02:43:48 PM 655 Views
Re: YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? - 10/02/2010 09:49:59 PM 617 Views
Re: the wise ones. - 13/02/2010 10:21:55 AM 459 Views
They're not the biggest clan... - 13/02/2010 02:20:38 PM 562 Views
Thank you - 15/02/2010 01:24:05 PM 666 Views
No problem. *NM* - 15/02/2010 09:05:11 PM 231 Views
Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? - 07/02/2010 06:14:31 PM 658 Views
Re: The point was that Rand needed the division. - 07/02/2010 08:34:10 PM 609 Views
small disagreement - 07/02/2010 08:42:07 PM 549 Views
Re: small disagreement - 08/02/2010 04:37:03 AM 488 Views
Egwene and Siuan have noted that there are plenty of the new Novices - 15/02/2010 04:22:35 PM 555 Views
For that matter, what is the point of Andor? - 08/02/2010 06:08:32 AM 609 Views
Re: For that matter, what is the point of Andor? - 08/02/2010 03:38:54 PM 555 Views
Especially true if - 08/02/2010 07:16:04 PM 525 Views
But Tar Valon is critical too. - 08/02/2010 07:41:43 PM 570 Views
Really? - 10/02/2010 05:30:02 AM 489 Views
Three women in a boat... - 10/02/2010 09:12:41 PM 532 Views
Nothing is ever given as a location for that boat that I recall. - 11/02/2010 11:54:39 PM 477 Views
So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. - 10/02/2010 10:13:56 PM 610 Views
Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. - 12/02/2010 12:43:19 AM 632 Views
In this, I agree with Fionwe. - 13/02/2010 10:31:07 AM 501 Views
Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. - 15/02/2010 02:23:57 PM 640 Views
Some good points, but I still disagree. - 15/02/2010 06:30:50 PM 531 Views
- 15/02/2010 10:08:48 PM 620 Views
my thoughts - 09/02/2010 12:58:30 PM 719 Views
Belief and order give strength. - 10/02/2010 11:20:01 PM 551 Views
To pad the last few books in order to make Egwene the Amyrlin. - 17/02/2010 05:25:22 PM 507 Views
I can't say I agree with the use of the term "padding". - 17/02/2010 06:07:25 PM 476 Views
Re: I can't say I agree with the use of the term "padding". - 22/02/2010 11:05:44 PM 537 Views
To unite the Tower under competent leadership, of course. - 23/02/2010 04:55:02 AM 979 Views
Does a main plotline HAVE to help defeat the DO? - 26/02/2010 04:11:30 PM 661 Views

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