Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower.
fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 12/02/2010 12:43:19 AM
Who said Andor was critical? Significant, yes, as the largest group left not under the control of him or the Seanchan, but who ever said it was crucially important for him? Does Elayne give a Hitler-esque rant to her followers about the glories ahead and how she will whip them into shape and people with remember them in awe, when she takes control of a reunited country? Of course not. The point about the Tower has been that everyone has been talking about it as a crucial and important thing, that the reunification was necessary for the world and the coming events.
Elayne doesn't have to rant. As queen, she is automatically the highest authority who no one can question. She is not going to have Dyelin and Luan writing letters of disapproval and threatening trouble in the Hall over perfectly valid decisions she makes.
And I'd argue that Egwene's speech rebuts your point by itself. However useless you think the Tower to be, however useless the Tower has been, Egwene doesn't intend to let it be so. She means to make it a force to be reckoned with against the Shadow. Should she succeed, as she is indeed well poised to, the need for reunification of the Tower, and her own presence at the helm of that effort is justified. Ranting about it before she can even try do that, before we have any chance of knowing what role the Tower might play, is absurd.
Tam's hint of what is to come in the next book argues otherwise.
In what way? Morghase's presence with Perrin means nothing.
Her survival is important, presumably because of some personal involvement with Rand yet to come, and for Andor's own good, but that is my point. It is the same with the Tower. The reunification of the Tower and Andor are both strictly internal issues that benefit on the organization and nation involved, and have little in the way of implications for the Last Battle.
But that is your interpretation, without even reading the last two books. Given the time devoted to Andor and the Tower, and given that two major protagonists have been involved in both situations, it is reasonable to assume the author has a purpose, and both these places will have a major role to play in the Last Battle.
What could she possibly have done, aside from cut into his time with Min? He's done well enough without her political advice, her channeling is to Rands as the White Tower's resources are to Rand's - negligible, and there is really not a lot that she could have helped with. So why not have her go off and do her thing. As for the wasting books, the Andoran story at least as a direct effect on Rand early on, as it provides motivation and psychological issues and so on. Elayne's own fight was a mere portion of three books.
The same case can be made for Egwene. Letting her do her own thing, and succeeding in a way that will deliver around 2000 channelers to him completely cleansed of all Darkfriends, is certainly better than having Egwene contributing in no big way by staying around Rand!
She is going to be much better, what with Dyelin knuckling under so easily to Aes Sedai (on that scale, we can say that Elayne's victory makes that of the Tower even more irrelevant - a Tower-influenced ruler would be a reason why the Tower's support for Rand was needed. Elayne on the other hand, can only be turned against Rand by his own actions, and certainly not the Tower), and her stick-in-the-mud adherence to Andor's traditions and customs.
Ummm... what? She did not bend to Aes Sedai pressure. Contrary to their urgings, she supported Rand once he promised to let Elayne rule, and didn't do anything to oust him from Andor.
As for Elayne, only you'd be blinded enough to think she won't be Tower influenced. For god's sake, with no prompting, she wishes that Rand would bend knee to Egwene! Egwene herself hasn't wished for any such thing, and has said quite a few times that Rand can get things done well enough, but only needs guidance.
With no prompting from Egwene required, Elayne is going to be a very Tower influenced ruler, simply because she cares for the Tower too. Given her close personal friendship with Egwene, and the fact that the two will soon be sisters-in-law, Andor will now be more aligned with the Tower than it has even been in its history!
She is no better than the obstructionists who are the last to stand for Elayne, except she does not want the burden of rulership. That bunch is arguably just as bad as Rahvin's courtiers who backed Arymilla's claim, IMO, since at least Rahvin's group were honestly self-interested, whereas Dyelin's group was demanding to adhere to their special privileges even in the face of Tarmon Gaidon, while dressing it up in noble-sounding terms. Just like the Tairen & Cairhienin rebels, they wanted things their way, they wanted to retain their special privileges of rank, and the man needed to save the world be damned. At least the "bad" third could have been bought. Elayne's victory is better than Dyelin, because it marginalizes them, whereas they would have been the most influential faction in Andor under Dyelin (and for that matter, Morgase). Now Elayne's closest supporters, the ones who came to her when times were bleak, and who can claim the most influence for their support, are weak teenagers without long-standing issues and vested interests. The entire power structure of the country is broken and whipped into a shape that will work better for Rand.
This is a similar end that Egwene was seeking in her inconsistent and contradictory speeches to the Hall and the rebels - knock down and power blocs who might claim too much influence over her administration. She wanted firm control over the Tower, unencumbered by the pre-Dragon Reborn factional currents and old rivalries and agendas. And this might be good, too, presuming Egwene uses that control to do something positive, instead of squabbling with Rand to preserve Aes Sedai privileges and special status. We know Elayne will be on Rand's side. We cannot say the same about Egwene for sure.
So, as you yourself seemed to have realized in between all your muddled arguments, there is no point discussing this till we see where Elayne and Egwene take their respective lands.
And we know, as clearly as we do with Elayne, that Egwene will be on Rand's side. Sure, she may flay him for ignoring the Black Tower and letting his underlings do stupid things, but that can only be to the good. That will satisfy Logain and his huge faction of good Asha'man, it will lead to the removal of Taim and the exposure of the DF Asha'man, etc. Given that Aes Sedai are seemingly supposed to help in destroying the Black Tower of Taim according to Elaida's prophesy, Egwene may in fact end up being the pivotal to exposing and excising the traitors in Rand's organization. Proving again that the White Tower's reunification was necessary.
No one compares Egwene to Rand thinking the Tower is equal to the world. They do so because there are obvious character parallels, because their stories were shown to be connected, and because beyond any doubt, they are the chief male and female protagonist of the series. It is a matter of thematic similarity, not a similarity of scale.
This is a similar end that Egwene was seeking in her inconsistent and contradictory speeches to the Hall and the rebels - knock down and power blocs who might claim too much influence over her administration. She wanted firm control over the Tower, unencumbered by the pre-Dragon Reborn factional currents and old rivalries and agendas. And this might be good, too, presuming Egwene uses that control to do something positive, instead of squabbling with Rand to preserve Aes Sedai privileges and special status. We know Elayne will be on Rand's side. We cannot say the same about Egwene for sure.
So, as you yourself seemed to have realized in between all your muddled arguments, there is no point discussing this till we see where Elayne and Egwene take their respective lands.
And we know, as clearly as we do with Elayne, that Egwene will be on Rand's side. Sure, she may flay him for ignoring the Black Tower and letting his underlings do stupid things, but that can only be to the good. That will satisfy Logain and his huge faction of good Asha'man, it will lead to the removal of Taim and the exposure of the DF Asha'man, etc. Given that Aes Sedai are seemingly supposed to help in destroying the Black Tower of Taim according to Elaida's prophesy, Egwene may in fact end up being the pivotal to exposing and excising the traitors in Rand's organization. Proving again that the White Tower's reunification was necessary.
Because everyone is acting like it IS more important than Andor. No one gave Andor excess or undue weight or tried to claim it is crucial or vital, or unjustly glorified Elayne for her winning, and tried to paint her as a female equivalent to Rand (though Elayne and Rand both WIN battles where they impress people, as opposed to certain Amyrlins who hail themselves as heroes of the Horn for a defeat).
No one compares Egwene to Rand thinking the Tower is equal to the world. They do so because there are obvious character parallels, because their stories were shown to be connected, and because beyond any doubt, they are the chief male and female protagonist of the series. It is a matter of thematic similarity, not a similarity of scale.
So what was the point of the White Tower struggle?
07/02/2010 04:41:58 AM
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The Tower will likely have some sort of "badass army" moment at the end... or, they'd BETTER
07/02/2010 06:46:51 AM
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Re: The Tower will likely have some sort of "badass army" moment at the end... or, they'd BETTER
08/02/2010 05:43:52 PM
- 558 Views
I think the breaking of the tower was....
07/02/2010 07:55:48 AM
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Yes, but that isn't the point.
08/02/2010 04:14:32 AM
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Re: Yes, but that isn't the point.
08/02/2010 04:40:52 AM
- 620 Views
YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal?
08/02/2010 04:55:46 AM
- 551 Views
Re: YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal?
08/02/2010 02:43:48 PM
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Re: YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal?
10/02/2010 09:49:59 PM
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Re: the wise ones.
13/02/2010 10:21:55 AM
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Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle?
07/02/2010 06:14:31 PM
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Re: The point was that Rand needed the division.
07/02/2010 08:34:10 PM
- 609 Views
small disagreement
07/02/2010 08:42:07 PM
- 550 Views
Re: small disagreement
08/02/2010 04:37:03 AM
- 488 Views
Egwene and Siuan have noted that there are plenty of the new Novices
15/02/2010 04:22:35 PM
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Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle?
08/02/2010 04:34:52 AM
- 698 Views
Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle?
08/02/2010 06:56:01 AM
- 567 Views
Such a resolution could have been a minor plot point like settling Tear or Cairhien
11/02/2010 11:53:41 PM
- 609 Views
Re: Such a resolution could have been a minor plot point like settling Tear or Cairhien
13/02/2010 10:45:06 AM
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Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle?
07/02/2010 10:42:27 PM
- 518 Views
These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that.
08/02/2010 04:50:11 AM
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Re: These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that.
08/02/2010 05:47:36 AM
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Re: These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that.
13/02/2010 09:33:04 AM
- 449 Views
For that matter, what is the point of Andor?
08/02/2010 06:08:32 AM
- 610 Views
Re: For that matter, what is the point of Andor?
08/02/2010 03:38:54 PM
- 555 Views
But Tar Valon is critical too.
08/02/2010 07:41:43 PM
- 572 Views
Really?
10/02/2010 05:30:02 AM
- 490 Views
So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower.
10/02/2010 10:13:56 PM
- 611 Views
Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower.
12/02/2010 12:43:19 AM
- 634 Views
Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower.
15/02/2010 02:23:57 PM
- 641 Views
To pad the last few books in order to make Egwene the Amyrlin.
17/02/2010 05:25:22 PM
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