Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? by Cannoli

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Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Cannoli Send a noteboard - 08/02/2010 04:34:52 AM

I think it's pretty much inescapable, because one of the core anchors of WoT is that saidin = insane and saidar = sane (pre-Cleansing). The White Tower must logically exist in the world, and if it exists then it is an obvious target for subterfuge and division by Moridin and the other FS. Whether it's worth saving or not is debatable, but I'd say it is. We've only really seen 6 organised groups of channelers at this time:

Saidar is in no way irrevocably tied to the Tower. Rand has access to all the saidar he needs, and the Tower's struggles have not led to a shortage of female channelers.

1) The Kin - They are weak and disorganised. They pretty much embody the negative aspects of AS from their actions in Caemlyn, where they do nothing much at all.

If you think that, your inability to grasp basic military realities severely undermines your credibility. They provided transport for troops and supplies, which is absolutely invaluable. Given a choice of channelers only helping as the Kin did, or only helping by fighting, I say take the former any day. Near-instant mobility is far more crucial to military success than their potential firepower. And in Caemlyn the Kin show exactly how useful such a useless group can be under the leadership of a capable outsider. If they were better run and organized, they would be marching to their own tune and resisting being useful to Elayne. With a leader and reunification, the Tower is now in that position.

2) The Seafolk Windfinders - These women are organised, disciplined, and battle-ready, but unfortunately they seem to be restricted largely to oceanic or coastal areas. One of my pet theories is that this is where Demandred's power base is, because several hundred Windfinders striking the southern shores would devastate the Light. They have reason, since Rand has failed to meet his side of the Bargain (Brandon said so).

Still doesn't explain why the Tower is necessary or why they HAD to beat Elaida.

3) The Damane - Deadly and numerous, but they are slaves and the practice will need to end. The adam also makes them unable to join circles, so there is little they can offer that the Asha'man can't.

Again. This means nothing as regards teh significance of the Tower.

4) The Wise Ones - this is Rand's most likely alternative to the WT if he wants large numbers of female channellers for circles, but I think that in tGS he pushed them a little too far. Their numbers are not so great, either.

Two or three Aiel clans have more channelers than the entire White Tower. Rand has the Wise Ones of 11 clans, suggesting he has at least triple the numbers of White Tower channelers.

5) The Black Tower - Festering at it's birth, the BT cannot act as a base for channelers in Randland until new management takes over. Taim must go, and I don't really trust Logain either - perhaps Narishma might lead them one day.

And so? Once again, this has nothing to do with the relevance of the White Tower. At least the Darkfriends in the Black Tower are not part of a 2,000 year old cell-based organization with spies and connections and influence throughout the world!

And of course there's (6), the White Tower. Despite the incompetence of it's current individual members, it has a history of acting as a stabilising and uniting force in Randland, a beacon of hope against the Shadow.

So what? That was then, this is now. How are they important to the fight against the Shadow, upon which the world and all else depends? I am not arguing about the point of the Tower's existance (though there is no proof that the Tower was necessary to do all that they claim to have done for the world), I am saying RIGHT NOW, what good are they that this struggle for control of the Tower is given nearly equal weight to the crucial personality development of the Dragon Reborn?

In these times, that is worth saving. As we've seen, Rand can send out messengers, soldiers, Aiel and Asha'man everywhere, but few places if any have given him as much respect as they would afford to an AS (note: respect, not fear).

What good is the respect of people so lacking in survival instincts that Rand's power combined with the threat of the Shadow is insufficient to get them to cooperate in the short term? It's not like Rand is worried about maintaining his authority for the next 50 years or so. And he can send his sworn Aes Sedai to get that "respect" if he really needs to.

If Egwene can unite the WT, and convince it that Rand is not a tool to be handled (something that only Min & Moiraine in the series seemed to understand), then she could use the Tower to consolidate the forces of Randland behind him, and create a truce with the Seanchan (note that even they consider the WT to be a massive threat, big enough to send their entire Raken fleet). Much of this power is based upon perception, but it exists nonetheless.

What ARE you smoking? How on earth, without a major paradigm shift, can the Tower be useful in allying Rand to the Seanchan? Beyond that, what does Rand need the Tower for? The world where the Tower has any influence is entirely under his thumb, or that of the Seanchan, or that of a woman whose relationship to Rand is such that the Tower is more of a hinderance than a unifying factor in bringing them together. Minus the Tower, Rand's major qualm about Elayne is gone. Minus the Tower, there is no one who can interfere with Elayne's reign or undermine her authority. Minus the Tower, the Seanchan don't suspect Rand is a puppet.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*

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So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Cannoli - 07/02/2010 04:41:58 AM 1799 Views

The Tower will likely have some sort of "badass army" moment at the end... or, they'd BETTER beetnemesis - 07/02/2010 06:46:51 AM 681 Views

Re: The Tower will likely have some sort of "badass army" moment at the end... or, they'd BETTER lyringlas - 08/02/2010 05:43:52 PM 556 Views

I think the breaking of the tower was.... brett014 - 07/02/2010 07:55:48 AM 764 Views

Nice idea, that does seem to make sense in hindsight. Lord Haart - 07/02/2010 06:18:35 PM 559 Views

Yes, but that isn't the point. Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:14:32 AM 648 Views

Re: Yes, but that isn't the point. brett014 - 08/02/2010 04:40:52 AM 620 Views

YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:55:46 AM 549 Views

Re:

YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? brett014 - 08/02/2010 02:43:48 PM 655 Views

Re:

YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? Cannoli - 10/02/2010 09:49:59 PM 616 Views

Re: the wise ones. Lord Haart - 13/02/2010 10:21:55 AM 459 Views

They're not the biggest clan... fionwe1987 - 13/02/2010 02:20:38 PM 562 Views

Thank you Cannoli - 15/02/2010 01:24:05 PM 665 Views

No problem. *NM* fionwe1987 - 15/02/2010 09:05:11 PM 231 Views

Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Lord Haart - 07/02/2010 06:14:31 PM 657 Views

Re: The point was that Rand needed the division. Watcher - 07/02/2010 08:34:10 PM 609 Views

small disagreement darius_sedai - 07/02/2010 08:42:07 PM 549 Views

Re: small disagreement Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:37:03 AM 486 Views

Egwene and Siuan have noted that there are plenty of the new Novices darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 04:22:35 PM 555 Views

Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:34:52 AM 698 Views

Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Lord Haart - 08/02/2010 06:56:01 AM 566 Views

Such a resolution could have been a minor plot point like settling Tear or Cairhien Cannoli - 11/02/2010 11:53:41 PM 608 Views

Re: Such a resolution could have been a minor plot point like settling Tear or Cairhien Lord Haart - 13/02/2010 10:45:06 AM 623 Views

Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? fairfax - 07/02/2010 10:42:27 PM 517 Views

These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that. Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:50:11 AM 695 Views

Re: These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that. fairfax - 08/02/2010 05:47:36 AM 568 Views

Re: These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that. orius - 13/02/2010 09:33:04 AM 448 Views

For that matter, what is the point of Andor? fionwe1987 - 08/02/2010 06:08:32 AM 609 Views

Re: For that matter, what is the point of Andor? brett014 - 08/02/2010 03:38:54 PM 555 Views

Especially true if Lord Haart - 08/02/2010 07:16:04 PM 525 Views

But Tar Valon is critical too. fionwe1987 - 08/02/2010 07:41:43 PM 570 Views

Really? Rurouni_Kenshin - 10/02/2010 05:30:02 AM 488 Views

Three women in a boat... fionwe1987 - 10/02/2010 09:12:41 PM 532 Views

Nothing is ever given as a location for that boat that I recall. Cannoli - 11/02/2010 11:54:39 PM 475 Views

So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. Cannoli - 10/02/2010 10:13:56 PM 610 Views

Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. fionwe1987 - 12/02/2010 12:43:19 AM 632 Views

In this, I agree with Fionwe. Lord Haart - 13/02/2010 10:31:07 AM 501 Views

Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. Cannoli - 15/02/2010 02:23:57 PM 639 Views

Some good points, but I still disagree. Lord Haart - 15/02/2010 06:30:50 PM 531 Views

fionwe1987 - 15/02/2010 10:08:48 PM 618 Views

my thoughts Yunalesca - 09/02/2010 12:58:30 PM 718 Views

Belief and order give strength. Gher - 10/02/2010 11:20:01 PM 550 Views

To pad the last few books in order to make Egwene the Amyrlin. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/02/2010 05:25:22 PM 506 Views

I can't say I agree with the use of the term "padding". Lord Haart - 17/02/2010 06:07:25 PM 475 Views

Re: I can't say I agree with the use of the term "padding". RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/02/2010 11:05:44 PM 537 Views

To unite the Tower under competent leadership, of course. JasonD - 23/02/2010 04:55:02 AM 978 Views

Does a main plotline HAVE to help defeat the DO? car'a'aman - 26/02/2010 04:11:30 PM 661 Views

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<quote id="79214"><quote>I think it's pretty much inescapable, because one of the core anchors of WoT is that saidin = insane and saidar = sane (pre-Cleansing).  The White Tower must logically exist in the world, and if it exists then it is an obvious target for subterfuge and division by Moridin and the other FS.  Whether it's worth saving or not is debatable, but I'd say it is.  We've only really seen 6 organised groups of channelers at this time:</quote> Saidar is in no way irrevocably tied to the Tower.  Rand has access to all the saidar he needs, and the Tower's struggles have not led to a shortage of female channelers.</quote>

<quote id="79214"><quote>1) The Kin - They are weak and disorganised.  They pretty much embody the negative aspects of AS from their actions in Caemlyn, where they do nothing much at all.</quote> If you think that, your inability to grasp basic military realities severely undermines your credibility. They provided transport for troops and supplies, which is absolutely invaluable.  Given a choice of channelers only helping as the Kin did, or only helping by fighting, I say take the former any day.  Near-instant mobility is far more crucial to military success than their potential firepower.  And in Caemlyn the Kin show exactly how useful such a useless group can be under the leadership of a capable outsider.  If they were better run and organized, they would be marching to their own tune and resisting being useful to Elayne.  With a leader and reunification, the Tower is now in that position.</quote>

<quote id="79214"><quote>2) The Seafolk Windfinders - These women are organised, disciplined, and battle-ready, but unfortunately they seem to be restricted largely to oceanic or coastal areas.  One of my pet theories is that this is where Demandred's power base is, because several hundred Windfinders striking the southern shores would devastate the Light.  They have reason, since Rand has failed to meet his side of the Bargain (Brandon said so).</quote> Still doesn't explain why the Tower is necessary or why they HAD to beat Elaida.</quote>

<quote id="79214"><quote>3) The Damane - Deadly and numerous, but they are slaves and the practice will need to end.  The adam also makes them unable to join circles, so there is little they can offer that the Asha'man can't.</quote>  Again. This means nothing as regards teh significance of the Tower.</quote>

<quote id="79214"><quote>4) The Wise Ones - this is Rand's most likely alternative to the WT if he wants large numbers of female channellers for circles, but I think that in tGS he pushed them a little too far.  Their numbers are not so great, either.</quote> Two or three Aiel clans have more channelers than the entire White Tower.  Rand has the Wise Ones of 11 clans, suggesting he has at least triple the numbers of White Tower channelers.</quote>

<quote id="79214"><quote>5) The Black Tower - Festering at it's birth, the BT cannot act as a base for channelers in Randland until new management takes over.  Taim must go, and I don't really trust Logain either - perhaps Narishma might lead them one day.</quote> And so?  Once again, this has nothing to do with the relevance of the White Tower.  At least the Darkfriends in the Black Tower are not part of a 2,000 year old cell-based organization with spies and connections and influence throughout the world!  </quote>

<quote id="79214"><quote>And of course there's (6), the White Tower.  Despite the incompetence of it's current individual members, it has a history of acting as a stabilising and uniting force in Randland, a beacon of hope against the Shadow.</quote>So what?  That was then, this is now.  How are they important to the fight against the Shadow, upon which the world and all else depends?  I am not arguing about the point of the Tower's existance (though there is no proof that the Tower was necessary to do all that they claim to have done for the world), I am saying RIGHT NOW, what good are they that this struggle for control of the Tower is given nearly equal weight to the crucial personality development of the Dragon Reborn?</quote>

<quote id="79214"><quote>In these times, that is worth saving.  As we've seen, Rand can send out messengers, soldiers, Aiel and Asha'man everywhere, but few places if any have given him as much respect as they would afford to an AS (note: respect, not fear).</quote> What good is the respect of people so lacking in survival instincts that Rand's power combined with the threat of the Shadow is insufficient to get them to cooperate in the short term?  It's not like Rand is worried about maintaining his authority for the next 50 years or so. And he can send his sworn Aes Sedai to get that "respect" if he really needs to. </quote>

<quote id="79214"><quote>If Egwene can unite the WT, and convince it that Rand is not a tool to be handled (something that only Min & Moiraine in the series seemed to understand), then she could use the Tower to consolidate the forces of Randland behind him, and create a truce with the Seanchan (note that even they consider the WT to be a massive threat, big enough to send their entire Raken fleet).  Much of this power is based upon perception, but it exists nonetheless.</quote> What ARE you smoking?  How on earth, without a major paradigm shift, can the Tower be useful in allying Rand to the Seanchan?  Beyond that, what does Rand need the Tower for? The world where the Tower has any influence is entirely under his thumb, or that of the Seanchan, or that of a woman whose relationship to Rand is such that the Tower is more of a hinderance than a unifying factor in bringing them together.  Minus the Tower, Rand's major qualm about Elayne is gone. Minus the Tower, there is no one who can interfere with Elayne's reign or undermine her authority. Minus the Tower, the Seanchan don't suspect Rand is a puppet. </quote>

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