Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
Lord Haart Send a noteboard - 27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
Saying "Well, you can't prove your case" does not make a person right. As with all science, the burden of proof lies upon the person putting a new theory forward.
As I stated above, lack of a direct quote stating that "Graendal is toast" does not mean that she isn't. As with my last post, Kerb could just have easily been a lead planted by Moridin as a lead planted by Graendal; in fact, Moridin has means and motive, while Graendal was clearly unprepared for the attack. The only explanations for her survival rely on suppositions which have no evidence in the books. Whereas explanations for Kerb's compulsion and behaviour are a dime a dozen.
A few quick possibilities off the top of my head:
1 - Graendal DID intend to use him as a trap/lead to Natrin's Barrow, but did not realise that Rand would just BF her in the face (even Ramshalan's POV wouldn't have told her that, or she would have just left). And if she really wanted to cause him pain, she would have just left before he Balefired the palace, so Rand would have seen that he killed hundreds of innocents for no reason. It makes more sense that she forgets that he plays mind games too, because she's made that mistake about Sammael and Moridin already.
2 - Moridin used one of his mindtrapped FS to plant Compulsion leading to Natrin's Barrow in Kerb's mind. Moridin has far more means and motives for the events that occurred than Graendal.
3 - Graendal planted him there as a low-visibility tool to kill off the high-profile Domanis to cover her tracks.
4 - Graendal wanted Millisair dead so it appeared to the other powermongers in Arad Doman that Rand was a brutal king who would kill them too, thereby distancing them from him (her direct orders from Moridin).
5 - Kerb had been planted there ages ago, and Graendal had simply lost track of him or forgotten to tell him to stop killing people.
As I stated above, lack of a direct quote stating that "Graendal is toast" does not mean that she isn't. As with my last post, Kerb could just have easily been a lead planted by Moridin as a lead planted by Graendal; in fact, Moridin has means and motive, while Graendal was clearly unprepared for the attack. The only explanations for her survival rely on suppositions which have no evidence in the books. Whereas explanations for Kerb's compulsion and behaviour are a dime a dozen.
A few quick possibilities off the top of my head:
1 - Graendal DID intend to use him as a trap/lead to Natrin's Barrow, but did not realise that Rand would just BF her in the face (even Ramshalan's POV wouldn't have told her that, or she would have just left). And if she really wanted to cause him pain, she would have just left before he Balefired the palace, so Rand would have seen that he killed hundreds of innocents for no reason. It makes more sense that she forgets that he plays mind games too, because she's made that mistake about Sammael and Moridin already.
2 - Moridin used one of his mindtrapped FS to plant Compulsion leading to Natrin's Barrow in Kerb's mind. Moridin has far more means and motives for the events that occurred than Graendal.
3 - Graendal planted him there as a low-visibility tool to kill off the high-profile Domanis to cover her tracks.
4 - Graendal wanted Millisair dead so it appeared to the other powermongers in Arad Doman that Rand was a brutal king who would kill them too, thereby distancing them from him (her direct orders from Moridin).
5 - Kerb had been planted there ages ago, and Graendal had simply lost track of him or forgotten to tell him to stop killing people.
Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
25/01/2010 05:18:23 PM
- 2703 Views
I think Graendal's death was a great scene
25/01/2010 05:26:51 PM
- 1401 Views
The scene itself was great. The rest is crap.
25/01/2010 05:37:44 PM
- 1202 Views
After reading 12 WoT books...
25/01/2010 05:46:31 PM
- 1290 Views
I think playing too many games just messes up with the integrety and solidness of the books ...
26/01/2010 09:46:16 PM
- 2681 Views
I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:18:30 PM
- 1259 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 06:44:34 PM
- 1202 Views
well one of her major character parallels is Josef Mengel
25/01/2010 06:54:43 PM
- 1003 Views
Can you think of any way that would explain the Compulsion vanishing?
25/01/2010 07:52:40 PM
- 1009 Views
that's kind of my whole point
25/01/2010 08:43:19 PM
- 949 Views
None of those "easy explanations" could work
26/01/2010 07:14:16 AM
- 1044 Views
my entire problem with the scene is that it just felt too open ended
26/01/2010 08:58:37 AM
- 1148 Views
Can't she knot it to disapate after being examined once?
26/01/2010 03:43:55 AM
- 977 Views
Do we have evidence that this is possible?
26/01/2010 03:44:48 AM
- 1148 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
26/01/2010 02:03:51 AM
- 1188 Views
I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 07:38:40 AM
- 963 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 08:49:00 AM
- 1149 Views
Re: I'm glad you think Be'lal is alive.
26/01/2010 09:19:35 AM
- 939 Views
Moiraine probably learned it while researching with Adealas and Vandene. *NM*
26/01/2010 04:57:09 PM
- 801 Views
26/01/2010 11:42:04 AM
- 1148 Views
He was balefired by a direct stream in front of at least two credible witnesses.
26/01/2010 04:10:13 PM
- 1116 Views
Re: I agree and have my own additional notes as to why I don't think she is dead.
25/01/2010 08:56:16 PM
- 1226 Views
I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:06:37 PM
- 1070 Views
Re: I believe she's dead
25/01/2010 09:09:58 PM
- 1106 Views
Besides, if it wasn't Graendal, it implies that she knew of Rand's plan, which is not feasible *NM*
26/01/2010 02:01:41 PM
- 601 Views
The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
25/01/2010 11:54:02 PM
- 1238 Views
Re: The compulsion did not disappear immediately. Read the damned scene!
26/01/2010 01:22:57 AM
- 979 Views
Stop passing judgments...
26/01/2010 02:05:21 AM
- 1179 Views
But your theories are becoming increasingly farfetched
26/01/2010 04:21:21 AM
- 1072 Views
I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:16:13 PM
- 1015 Views
Re: I repeat that I find her "death" monumental...
26/01/2010 07:23:29 PM
- 1055 Views
Dude, then you derailed the thread...
26/01/2010 07:31:55 PM
- 968 Views
no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 08:51:31 AM
- 969 Views
Re: no she said she wouldn't risk strength and skill in the same place
26/01/2010 11:37:26 AM
- 1109 Views
read the whole quote
26/01/2010 04:35:17 PM
- 821 Views
LOL! You read the whole quote
26/01/2010 07:00:41 PM
- 944 Views
the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
27/01/2010 12:40:09 AM
- 1005 Views
Re: the risk she won't take is strength and skill residing together.
28/01/2010 04:28:21 PM
- 1172 Views
I don't see any flaws.
25/01/2010 09:14:44 PM
- 1192 Views
But...
25/01/2010 11:44:49 PM
- 940 Views
Re: But...
26/01/2010 01:14:51 AM
- 1075 Views
That still doesn't make sense.
26/01/2010 02:23:12 AM
- 1163 Views
But, having a clean up guy does make sense.
26/01/2010 03:02:13 AM
- 1195 Views
But the clean up guy would require another clean up guy!
26/01/2010 03:35:44 AM
- 1056 Views
Nonsense.
26/01/2010 07:50:04 AM
- 917 Views
Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 07:21:52 PM
- 1096 Views
Re: Dude, read what I said please...
26/01/2010 09:28:25 PM
- 1084 Views
Kerb had no initiative... he was under too heavy a Compulsion to think for himself
27/01/2010 12:45:47 AM
- 974 Views
I think he had some, albeit probably not a whole lot
27/01/2010 01:03:44 AM
- 1018 Views
Messenger was running around being obvious. Noone would suspect Kerb though. Case Closed. *NM*
26/01/2010 11:08:16 AM
- 718 Views
Thank the creator you're not in the police then. *NM*
26/01/2010 07:22:29 PM
- 652 Views
Ok, in more detail:
26/01/2010 08:16:30 PM
- 1101 Views
Thoughts
26/01/2010 01:05:45 AM
- 933 Views
Nope. Ramshalan was just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 11:10:25 AM
- 917 Views
Re: Nope. Ramshalan was NOT just "collecting taxes" or something.
26/01/2010 05:41:17 PM
- 1019 Views
By, the way, if I understand this correctly...
26/01/2010 04:49:45 PM
- 1142 Views
I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 07:29:42 PM
- 1011 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
26/01/2010 09:42:52 PM
- 805 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 03:26:46 AM
- 1019 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 04:05:23 AM
- 1114 Views
That's not fair
27/01/2010 04:09:38 AM
- 969 Views
I agree about the 'awesome' part .
27/01/2010 05:41:00 AM
- 947 Views
Does anybody have a link to it? (nothing on Google). I'm intrigued. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:27:13 AM
- 611 Views
It was on Wotmania. Someone copied all the theories, but I don't recall whom. *NM*
27/01/2010 08:31:00 AM
- 748 Views
I just think it's funny that what you call omniscience has been done by the Forsaken before.
27/01/2010 02:02:44 PM
- 926 Views
But Graendal was the victim of a greater plot.
27/01/2010 05:30:28 PM
- 1038 Views
So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
27/01/2010 05:57:20 PM
- 1079 Views
Re: So your response is that Ishamael/Moridin is omniscient, not Graendal.
28/01/2010 04:05:21 AM
- 1109 Views
Give me one example. Just one. *NM*
27/01/2010 06:52:44 PM
- 689 Views
Ishamael plans millennia ahead by sowing the seeds for the Black Ajah, the Seanchan and the current
28/01/2010 01:57:39 PM
- 1096 Views
Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 06:31:06 PM
- 873 Views
Re: Not even comparable.
28/01/2010 07:50:38 PM
- 995 Views
Could you please take the effort to read my posts?
28/01/2010 10:45:01 PM
- 939 Views
And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 07:12:17 PM
- 749 Views
Re: And, just to double post:
27/01/2010 08:25:45 PM
- 1018 Views
Nice answer.
28/01/2010 12:10:27 AM
- 1078 Views
Re: Nice answer.
28/01/2010 01:55:16 PM
- 1010 Views
Hilarious.
28/01/2010 06:36:22 PM
- 1102 Views
Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:15:20 PM
- 1026 Views
Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:41:29 PM
- 1014 Views
Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 07:53:34 PM
- 865 Views
Re: Hilarious.
28/01/2010 10:55:57 PM
- 1055 Views
That's because you didn't look at other posts.
29/01/2010 03:37:08 PM
- 1002 Views
Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 03:57:41 PM
- 1029 Views
Re: Moridin's main directive was..
29/01/2010 04:50:16 PM
- 1084 Views
Preventing order wasn't accomplished...
29/01/2010 05:12:22 PM
- 1047 Views
I disagree.
29/01/2010 05:28:59 PM
- 1426 Views
I will stop our discussion here; the posts are already pushed too far to the right of my display. *NM*
29/01/2010 06:14:29 PM
- 544 Views
You expect me to search every post you've made on this forum, ever?
29/01/2010 06:50:49 PM
- 976 Views
Re: I'm not arguing she's alive, but...
27/01/2010 01:00:42 AM
- 989 Views
I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 06:24:44 AM
- 1095 Views
Re: I don't see a flaw
27/01/2010 04:18:27 PM
- 1016 Views
Yup, I'm tired of seeing arguments that ignore the need to back up their own claims.
27/01/2010 05:47:16 PM
- 1014 Views
I don't think there's a flaw, I think you misinterpret Graendal's plans
27/01/2010 06:57:44 PM
- 1023 Views
Good point on Ituralde - he may still be Compulsed in ways we're yet to discover. *NM*
28/01/2010 04:11:15 AM
- 661 Views
Re: Graendal's death would imply a major logical flaw in the story.
27/01/2010 09:11:32 PM
- 992 Views