In an earlier thread Sidious brought up some interesting things about the DO, and I figured it was worth separating the subject by making a thread of its own.
The question in the earlier thread was about a potential attack at SG to rescue Rand from Semirhage, and whether or not such an rescue could succeed. Sidious suggested that the DO has vast power to manipulate events at SG. But how much Power? And what can he do?
1. Can the DO just reach out and kill anyone he wants near the SG at will?
We know that during the AoL, LTT was able to lead a striketeam to SG itself. Presumably he had to get very close to the bore in order to place the seals, so he probably went to the heart of SG, to the place where the DO was strongest. And this was with no seals yet in place.
And yet the DO did not instantly kill either LTT, or the hundred companions. It is true that he was able to taint saidin, but that was because LTT touched the DO with saidin directly rather than the physical presence of the man himself. Infact RJ has confirmed that it was the unique set of circumstances at place during the sealing that allowed the DO to do this. He could not easily do it again.
In any case, the answer seems clear. The DO does not have ultimate power to instantly kill people at SG. Infact if he did, he would not need any help in the form of shadowspawn and forsaken. No one would ever be able to approach the SG to seal him away. This is not the case.
2. Can the DO attack people at SG?
This is a trickier question since we have never seen an actual battle at SG. LTT and most of the hundred companions did survive, but it could be that the hundred companions were needed specifically to protect LTT from attacks by the DO while he placed the seals.
We have seen that the DO can influence the world. He was able to mess with the weather by creating the long summer. And he is also responsible for the bubbles of evil. Though we don't know if the DO is able to control and direct the bubbles, or if they just strike randomly.
I would speculate that the DO is able to do something that would be viewed as an attack. But it can obviously be countered and defended against. Maybe the DO just channels the TP in some way vaguely similar to mortal channelers. Or maybe he can just spawn more bubbles of evil and direct them at the SG area, causing havoc. But the bubbles, dangerous though they are, can be fought.
3. Can the DO interfere with channeling at SG?
We know that using the TP at SG is instantly fatal, but what about the OP? We know from the PoV of people such as Demandred, that channeling the OP at SG is deadly, but why?
This question was actually asked of RJ:
Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's points of view that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?
Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.
So it seems that the major reason for why the forsaken fear using the OP at SG, is because if they did it (without permission anyway) it would be an act of open defiance against the DO. They know that they would not survive angering the DO like that.
However RJ does imply that there are potential "interactions" between the OP and the power the DO uses(is?), the TP. We know that when Rand&Moridin crossed balefire streams of OP&TP, the strange link was formed. Presumably if the DO tried, he might be able to do something.
However, we know that he was unable to shield LTT from the source, nor was he able to disrupt LTT enough to prevent being sealed. Yes, he was able to strike back at the end and taint saidin, but it was still a defeat. If not for the seals, the DO could have broken free long ago, but he was defeated by the OP seals.
The DO might be able to interfere, but he cannot just cut you off from OP. The fact that Shaidar Haran can, has been strongly suggested by the signings/interviews to be something that affects only those who have sworn themselves to the DO.
4. What about traveling?
This is something that I was thinking about. Why is it that everyone seems to be so convinced that the last battle will be a case of fighting off trollocs. I mean we could say that Rand was being ignorant, but even Moridin seems to think so since he is spending so much time in "war preparations" as it says in TGS.
The thing I cannot understand, is why would Rand&Co waste time with that? It seems to me that the after he figures out how to seal the DO away properly, the smart thing would be to open a gateway straight to SG and travel directly there. That is the heart of the shadow afterall. With the DO completely neutralised, the LB would essentially be won. The trollocs could then be killed at leisure (assuming that being shadowspawn, they would not perish once the DO was cut off from the world).
I was wondering if it might be possible for the DO to mess around with the pattern near him to make traveling to SG difficult. That might explain a lot. It might mean that to get to SG, Rand and his people would actually have to fight through the trollocs, rather than just bypassing and ignoring them through traveling.
Though that does beg the question of how LTT did it? However is it actually said anywhere that he used gateways? Could he and his troops have used airplanes and such instead?
5. So what can he do that we know of for certain.
Well, he can manipulate reality to some degree atleast. We know that from the changing "teeth", and the fact that distances at SG are variable. He is also able to mindtrap people there, and do other things aswell. Fain was "modified" at SG, and apparently so are the Grey Men.
Channeling the TP apparently fries you if you do it at SG, implying that there is more of his power present there, though it is interesting that this suggests that DO is unable to control that power fully. It would be in his best interest to let Moridin for instance use the TP even at the heart of SG, if thats what it took to stop Rand, but the answers imply that Moridin would die if he did.
What else? We could speculate a lot ofcourse, but what else has it been confirmed that the DO can actually do?
The question in the earlier thread was about a potential attack at SG to rescue Rand from Semirhage, and whether or not such an rescue could succeed. Sidious suggested that the DO has vast power to manipulate events at SG. But how much Power? And what can he do?
1. Can the DO just reach out and kill anyone he wants near the SG at will?
We know that during the AoL, LTT was able to lead a striketeam to SG itself. Presumably he had to get very close to the bore in order to place the seals, so he probably went to the heart of SG, to the place where the DO was strongest. And this was with no seals yet in place.
And yet the DO did not instantly kill either LTT, or the hundred companions. It is true that he was able to taint saidin, but that was because LTT touched the DO with saidin directly rather than the physical presence of the man himself. Infact RJ has confirmed that it was the unique set of circumstances at place during the sealing that allowed the DO to do this. He could not easily do it again.
In any case, the answer seems clear. The DO does not have ultimate power to instantly kill people at SG. Infact if he did, he would not need any help in the form of shadowspawn and forsaken. No one would ever be able to approach the SG to seal him away. This is not the case.
2. Can the DO attack people at SG?
This is a trickier question since we have never seen an actual battle at SG. LTT and most of the hundred companions did survive, but it could be that the hundred companions were needed specifically to protect LTT from attacks by the DO while he placed the seals.
We have seen that the DO can influence the world. He was able to mess with the weather by creating the long summer. And he is also responsible for the bubbles of evil. Though we don't know if the DO is able to control and direct the bubbles, or if they just strike randomly.
I would speculate that the DO is able to do something that would be viewed as an attack. But it can obviously be countered and defended against. Maybe the DO just channels the TP in some way vaguely similar to mortal channelers. Or maybe he can just spawn more bubbles of evil and direct them at the SG area, causing havoc. But the bubbles, dangerous though they are, can be fought.
3. Can the DO interfere with channeling at SG?
We know that using the TP at SG is instantly fatal, but what about the OP? We know from the PoV of people such as Demandred, that channeling the OP at SG is deadly, but why?
This question was actually asked of RJ:
Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's points of view that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?
Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.
So it seems that the major reason for why the forsaken fear using the OP at SG, is because if they did it (without permission anyway) it would be an act of open defiance against the DO. They know that they would not survive angering the DO like that.
However RJ does imply that there are potential "interactions" between the OP and the power the DO uses(is?), the TP. We know that when Rand&Moridin crossed balefire streams of OP&TP, the strange link was formed. Presumably if the DO tried, he might be able to do something.
However, we know that he was unable to shield LTT from the source, nor was he able to disrupt LTT enough to prevent being sealed. Yes, he was able to strike back at the end and taint saidin, but it was still a defeat. If not for the seals, the DO could have broken free long ago, but he was defeated by the OP seals.
The DO might be able to interfere, but he cannot just cut you off from OP. The fact that Shaidar Haran can, has been strongly suggested by the signings/interviews to be something that affects only those who have sworn themselves to the DO.
4. What about traveling?
This is something that I was thinking about. Why is it that everyone seems to be so convinced that the last battle will be a case of fighting off trollocs. I mean we could say that Rand was being ignorant, but even Moridin seems to think so since he is spending so much time in "war preparations" as it says in TGS.
The thing I cannot understand, is why would Rand&Co waste time with that? It seems to me that the after he figures out how to seal the DO away properly, the smart thing would be to open a gateway straight to SG and travel directly there. That is the heart of the shadow afterall. With the DO completely neutralised, the LB would essentially be won. The trollocs could then be killed at leisure (assuming that being shadowspawn, they would not perish once the DO was cut off from the world).
I was wondering if it might be possible for the DO to mess around with the pattern near him to make traveling to SG difficult. That might explain a lot. It might mean that to get to SG, Rand and his people would actually have to fight through the trollocs, rather than just bypassing and ignoring them through traveling.
Though that does beg the question of how LTT did it? However is it actually said anywhere that he used gateways? Could he and his troops have used airplanes and such instead?
5. So what can he do that we know of for certain.
Well, he can manipulate reality to some degree atleast. We know that from the changing "teeth", and the fact that distances at SG are variable. He is also able to mindtrap people there, and do other things aswell. Fain was "modified" at SG, and apparently so are the Grey Men.
Channeling the TP apparently fries you if you do it at SG, implying that there is more of his power present there, though it is interesting that this suggests that DO is unable to control that power fully. It would be in his best interest to let Moridin for instance use the TP even at the heart of SG, if thats what it took to stop Rand, but the answers imply that Moridin would die if he did.
What else? We could speculate a lot ofcourse, but what else has it been confirmed that the DO can actually do?
How strong is the Dark One at SG?
- 22/01/2010 06:41:47 PM
764 Views
SG....maybe Rand is going to return to the island and turn into LTT
- 22/01/2010 10:00:49 PM
479 Views