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Agreeing to disagree here ... we interpret the evidence differently and it's futile to argue. darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 20/01/2010 08:41:08 PM
Remember, as far as we know BS only has a strength list with 21 levels on it. By all accounts, he doesn't really know HOW MUCH stronger one channeler is than another. As in, he knows channelers are 1 or 2 or 5 levels stronger than other channelers, but he doesn't know whether they're 25% stronger, 50% stronger or 100% stronger.

So, when BS first made the comment about Cyndane being VERY weak, it was because he still didn't have Maria's understanding of the VAST strength gap between Lanfear and Moiraine.

All BS knew, was that the amount of Power that Lanfear lost, was enough to make Moiraine stronger than say Cadsuane.

So, if BS thought Cadsuane was a pretty strong channeler, say close to Forsaken strength, then he would think that for Moiraine to gain so much, and Lanfear to lose so much, would make Cyndane very weak.

As an example, I believe that if Lanfear has 100 strength, then Cadsuane has around 35 and Moiraine has around 30. But if BS had an incorrect understanding of this, he might have thought that if Lanfear is at 100, then Cadsuane is at 80 and Moiraine is at 50. So, for Moiraine to exceed Cadsuane, she might have to go up to 90, a gain of 40 units of strength. If that same amount had to come off of Lanfear, then Cyndane would now be on only 60 strength.

In reality, however, we know that Moiraine doesn't have to gain much to surpass Cadsuane, and therefore Cyndane doesn't have to be much lower than Lanfear to have transferred that portion of her strength to Moiraine.


NS
An Arrival

"A little more care with the other cups," the Green said, unperturbed by all the gaping. "Child?" Moiraine returned to the hearth still staring, and Cadsuane went on. "Meilyn is considerably older. When she and I are gone, that leaves Kerene the strongest." Larelle flinched. Did the woman mean to violate every custom in one go? "Am I disturbing you?" Cadsuane's solicitous tone could not have been more false, and she did not wait for an answer. "Holding our silence about age doesn't keep people from knowing we live longer than they. Phaaw! From Kerene, it's a sharp drop to the next five. Five once this child and the Sanche girl reach their potential. And one of those is as old as I am and in retirement to boot."

Note that Cadsuane is stronger than Kerene and there is a "sharp drop" from Kerene to Moiraine. If Cadsuane is one level above Kerene, Kerene is at least 2 levels above Moiraine or it would not be a "sharp drop" ... if Cadsuane is a 65 and Kerene a 60, then Moiraine couldn't be more than a 50. You would have to take 20 points from Lanfear's 100 to make Moiraine stronger than Cadsuane and that makes Cyndane too weak to be stronger than the other FS women.

Even if Cadsuane is a 45 Moiraine would be maybe a 35 at most meaning you'd still have to take 15 points from Lanfear, which is still too much for Cyndane to be stronger than Graendal without making all the other FS women far too weak!


If Moiraine is 30, and Cadsuane is 40, then you only need to take about 15 from Lanfear to make Moiraine stronger than Cadsuane, and only 10 to make her equal to Cadsuane.

The consensus has always been that the likes of Graendal are significantly weaker than Lanfear. Lanfear is most likely around 20% stronger than Graendal.


that 1. Cadsuane is so weak and 2. that the other FS women are 20% weaker than Lanfear. There is no way that Graendal would have been willing to go toe to toe with Lanfear in tFoH if she were that much weaker. Not to mention a 10 point spread does not equal the evidence from NS on how much stronger Cadsuane is than Moiraine while still leaving room for the "sharp drop" after Kerene.

Here's another NS quote

An Arrival

A number of women were stronger than she, but only one could be as much stronger as this one. Unwillingly, she looked over her shoulder.

But I'm not going to argue in circles with your opinions on OP strength ... it's been beaten to death as it is. Suffice to say I disagree with your assessment of strength :)


A 10% strength difference is most likely significant to them, given the low strength of the average Aes Sedai. And hereby I mean that if one Aes Sedai has a strength of 20, then 10% of that is 2. So a strength of 22 would no doubt be considered significantly greater than a strength of 20.

Which is perfectly reasonable, when you understand that a Moiraine strength channeler is only about 50% stronger than the average Aes Sedai. In that context, a difference of 10% is significant.

As for strength difference between Forsaken, well, we know that 3 Aes Sedai can take on Moghedien, according to Liandrin, but that 6 are not enough to take on a false Dragon of upper male Forsaken strength. So clearly there is a huge gap between the strongest and weakest Forsaken. In fact, the weakest Forsaken may barely be 50% of Rand's effective strength. And we know Lanfear comes close to matching Rand's effective strength.

So, if Lanfear has close to twice the effective strength of Moghedien, then why should there not be a 20% gap between Lanfear and some of the other Forsaken females?



Which even RJ stated was futile

as Dominic reported, Jordan did not have a single ranking of men and women:

Brandon confirmed to me post signing last summer that RJ had nothing to compare male vs. female strength. He kept two separate systems, one for women and one for men.


3 weak women held Semrihage too ... leading me to believe that she's not all that much stronger than Moghedien, we also know from Moiraine that 2x Egwene would overwhelm a female Forsaken. And she's 2x the average AS... she is a minimum of a 70 if 2 women her strength linked can overwhelm a 100 (they would be a 126 linked). Which means "Strong AS" are around a 35, making Moiraine more like a 40 and Cadsuane probably about a 60.

But we also saw 4 women hold a shield on Rand at Dumai's Wells! It's not until that shield is only held by 3 women that he breaks through.

Just because 6 women faced and lost to a False Dragon doesn't mean they were out muscled, more likely they were simply out fought by a man who was a better warrior than they were.

With that said I'm not going to further respond... tired of this discussion taking us nowhere ... just agree to disagree :)


Moiraine said: "Egwene and Aviendha MIGHT overwhelm one Forsaken. And all that needs to mean is that the two of them MIGHT be in the vicinity of a Forsaken's strength. If they're lucky, they might then emerge victorious from the fight. Where you get a minimum strength of 70 for Egwene, based on this quote, is beyond me.

As for three women holding Semirhage, that means you'd probably need 4 or more to TAKE her if she was already holding the Power.

As for males vs. females. We're talking about the EFFECTIVE strength here. What they can effectively achieve with the Power.

RJ's quote stated that SHIELDING someone is more difficult for someone of the opposite sex. But to overwhelm and defeat him is a different story. Then it is a simple battle of strength and skill. Three could apparently overwhelm Moghedien. 6 could not do so to a false Dragon.







Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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My Lanfear/Cyndane theory has been disproven. - 20/01/2010 05:12:58 PM 2848 Views
It was discussed - 20/01/2010 05:27:43 PM 1181 Views
Re: It was discussed - 20/01/2010 07:09:01 PM 966 Views
Maybe... - 20/01/2010 07:15:57 PM 908 Views
Re: Maybe... - 20/01/2010 08:53:47 PM 962 Views
Yeah, that would be a possibility! *NM* - 20/01/2010 09:01:26 PM 887 Views
That doesn't really jive with Aran'gar though - 20/01/2010 09:03:35 PM 904 Views
But... - 20/01/2010 09:11:47 PM 878 Views
I think it's pretty obvious that pretty much any man is going to be - 20/01/2010 09:41:40 PM 831 Views
The idea behind this theory is... - 21/01/2010 07:15:19 AM 1019 Views
Maybe there is a difference between male souls and female souls ... - 20/01/2010 09:35:57 PM 902 Views
Plausible - 20/01/2010 09:45:21 PM 1001 Views
Actually, I didn't mean to imply that my idea of female strength is related to body size ... - 20/01/2010 10:10:48 PM 881 Views
LOL ... I hear ya on that - 20/01/2010 10:17:02 PM 945 Views
I'm so pleased this theory is false! - 12/12/2010 05:00:06 PM 801 Views
people didn't like it when I proposed it - 20/01/2010 05:31:18 PM 1124 Views
Thanks. - 20/01/2010 08:36:58 PM 1017 Views
I don't like the idea that she was healed by a woman - 20/01/2010 05:48:19 PM 964 Views
I agree, and it seems unlikely that a new "better" method - 20/01/2010 06:07:04 PM 880 Views
It's NOT due to Stilling or Healing and it's NOT due to Cyndane's weaker body... - 20/01/2010 06:46:08 PM 1006 Views
I think Moiraine's gaining strength seems a little too LotR. - 20/01/2010 06:55:34 PM 912 Views
I also like that theory - 20/01/2010 07:14:20 PM 941 Views
I think BS's error regarding Cyndane's strength can also be explained by this theory... - 20/01/2010 07:17:59 PM 904 Views
Yes perhaps - 20/01/2010 07:25:06 PM 934 Views
Cadsuane is considerably stronger than Moiraine - 20/01/2010 07:31:42 PM 918 Views
Nope... - 20/01/2010 07:38:55 PM 893 Views
I disagree as usual - 20/01/2010 07:45:29 PM 804 Views
We don't know the magnitude of what Aes Sedai consider a significant strength difference... - 20/01/2010 07:54:38 PM 886 Views
You are comparing Male and female strength here - 20/01/2010 08:18:45 PM 938 Views
Why do you misquote Moiraine? - 20/01/2010 08:39:55 PM 909 Views
Agreeing to disagree here ... we interpret the evidence differently and it's futile to argue. - 20/01/2010 08:41:08 PM 1077 Views
Cadsuane isn't too strong - 21/01/2010 04:19:41 AM 918 Views
Actually... - 21/01/2010 05:57:43 AM 889 Views
Re: Actually... - 21/01/2010 12:31:53 PM 929 Views
Sorry, that was the Glossary... - 21/01/2010 08:07:56 PM 817 Views
- 22/01/2010 11:05:23 AM 989 Views
So Glossary or character? - 22/01/2010 10:22:15 PM 691 Views
Re: Actually... - 12/12/2010 04:42:22 PM 932 Views
Re: I think BS's error regarding Cyndane's strength can also be explained by this theory... - 20/01/2010 07:43:28 PM 905 Views
Agree with both your comments... - 20/01/2010 07:46:07 PM 906 Views
Re: Agree with both your comments... - 20/01/2010 08:24:16 PM 959 Views
But seriously... - 21/01/2010 12:14:16 PM 800 Views
Re: But seriously... - 21/01/2010 12:34:18 PM 970 Views
I don't think it has to be so unique... - 21/01/2010 01:13:00 PM 930 Views
Re: I don't think it has to be so unique... - 21/01/2010 04:49:42 PM 931 Views
Also would explain the question of why Moiraine left the angreal on the wagon instead of using it... - 21/01/2010 02:30:46 PM 903 Views
I think it makes more sense... - 21/01/2010 02:34:30 PM 934 Views
Lanfear would have been toast if Moiraine had the angreal, plus foreknowledge of the confrontation.. - 21/01/2010 02:38:57 PM 903 Views
In her letter to Thom - 21/01/2010 02:55:32 PM 927 Views
One other tiny thing - 21/01/2010 03:18:03 PM 867 Views
Yes, and that is often overlooked - 21/01/2010 04:48:08 PM 818 Views
That's my interpretation, also ... - 21/01/2010 04:00:35 PM 794 Views
Nods in agreement - 21/01/2010 06:24:59 PM 950 Views
I think the "bubble of hope" was simply ... - 21/01/2010 07:08:44 PM 743 Views
Agreed *NM* - 21/01/2010 11:38:43 PM 531 Views
No, I don't think so - 21/01/2010 04:43:53 PM 985 Views
I always figured Lanfear bargained away some power to escape the Finns - 20/01/2010 07:37:31 PM 900 Views
But... - 20/01/2010 07:50:14 PM 944 Views
Re: My Lanfear/Cyndane theory has been disproven. - 20/01/2010 07:51:38 PM 1170 Views
That idea has also been disproven ... - 20/01/2010 08:19:22 PM 1027 Views
Agreed... - 20/01/2010 08:36:47 PM 798 Views
Yeah ... - 20/01/2010 08:43:24 PM 943 Views
The closest I ever saw was the "Lightfriend/Purple Ajah" theory - 20/01/2010 08:46:20 PM 1177 Views
Yeah, the Verin revelation was cool... - 20/01/2010 08:48:53 PM 892 Views
Re: That idea has also been disproven ... - 21/01/2010 05:12:45 PM 879 Views
I think it may be more simple than it seems. - 21/01/2010 04:15:05 PM 1000 Views
Doesn't fit with BS's words - 21/01/2010 04:27:43 PM 830 Views
Also ... - 21/01/2010 04:32:58 PM 795 Views
I don't think BS words or Cyndane's comments really prove anything. - 21/01/2010 04:42:59 PM 938 Views
BS says that Cyndane is truly weaker. So, this theory is out. *NM* - 21/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 574 Views
Re: BS says that Cyndane is truly weaker. So, this theory is out. - 21/01/2010 04:49:09 PM 914 Views
Well, actually - 21/01/2010 04:54:17 PM 836 Views
Re: Well, actually - 21/01/2010 05:11:10 PM 845 Views
The wording is absolutely unambiguous, but I suppose one can argue everything. *NM* - 21/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 597 Views
Re: The wording is absolutely unambiguous, but I suppose one can argue everything. - 21/01/2010 06:07:09 PM 1153 Views
I agree - 21/01/2010 06:23:34 PM 921 Views
Re: I agree - 21/01/2010 07:59:36 PM 920 Views
Re: I agree - 22/01/2010 07:23:37 AM 825 Views
Re: I agree - 22/01/2010 11:11:55 AM 1004 Views
I think... - 21/01/2010 06:46:57 PM 868 Views
Re: I think... - 21/01/2010 06:58:49 PM 765 Views
You are right... - 21/01/2010 07:12:47 PM 864 Views
Re: You are right... - 21/01/2010 07:21:00 PM 973 Views
Anyone who thinks she's hiding her strength is wrong - 21/01/2010 08:09:42 PM 1141 Views
Indeed, it's pretty idiotic. *NM* - 21/01/2010 08:19:53 PM 480 Views
Dude... - 21/01/2010 08:51:08 PM 908 Views
Re: Dude... - 22/01/2010 11:14:08 AM 939 Views
Re: Dude... - 22/01/2010 10:21:15 PM 1078 Views
Meh - 21/01/2010 11:19:16 PM 773 Views
Re: Meh - 22/01/2010 11:15:20 AM 915 Views
Re: Meh - 22/01/2010 03:09:10 PM 860 Views
Re: Meh - 22/01/2010 04:15:51 PM 884 Views
actually if one really wants to figure out what happened to Cyndane - 21/01/2010 07:00:33 PM 1056 Views
Dumb question, but do transmigrated souls need to re-reach their full potential? - 21/01/2010 06:19:57 PM 906 Views
It seems like they start out as powerful as they were, but I don't think it's ever been stated *NM* - 21/01/2010 06:44:45 PM 568 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 21/01/2010 07:03:13 PM 495 Views
That's what I thought. *NM* - 21/01/2010 10:05:38 PM 515 Views

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