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Why do you misquote Moiraine? Shannow Send a noteboard - 20/01/2010 08:39:55 PM
Remember, as far as we know BS only has a strength list with 21 levels on it. By all accounts, he doesn't really know HOW MUCH stronger one channeler is than another. As in, he knows channelers are 1 or 2 or 5 levels stronger than other channelers, but he doesn't know whether they're 25% stronger, 50% stronger or 100% stronger.

So, when BS first made the comment about Cyndane being VERY weak, it was because he still didn't have Maria's understanding of the VAST strength gap between Lanfear and Moiraine.

All BS knew, was that the amount of Power that Lanfear lost, was enough to make Moiraine stronger than say Cadsuane.

So, if BS thought Cadsuane was a pretty strong channeler, say close to Forsaken strength, then he would think that for Moiraine to gain so much, and Lanfear to lose so much, would make Cyndane very weak.

As an example, I believe that if Lanfear has 100 strength, then Cadsuane has around 35 and Moiraine has around 30. But if BS had an incorrect understanding of this, he might have thought that if Lanfear is at 100, then Cadsuane is at 80 and Moiraine is at 50. So, for Moiraine to exceed Cadsuane, she might have to go up to 90, a gain of 40 units of strength. If that same amount had to come off of Lanfear, then Cyndane would now be on only 60 strength.

In reality, however, we know that Moiraine doesn't have to gain much to surpass Cadsuane, and therefore Cyndane doesn't have to be much lower than Lanfear to have transferred that portion of her strength to Moiraine.


NS
An Arrival

"A little more care with the other cups," the Green said, unperturbed by all the gaping. "Child?" Moiraine returned to the hearth still staring, and Cadsuane went on. "Meilyn is considerably older. When she and I are gone, that leaves Kerene the strongest." Larelle flinched. Did the woman mean to violate every custom in one go? "Am I disturbing you?" Cadsuane's solicitous tone could not have been more false, and she did not wait for an answer. "Holding our silence about age doesn't keep people from knowing we live longer than they. Phaaw! From Kerene, it's a sharp drop to the next five. Five once this child and the Sanche girl reach their potential. And one of those is as old as I am and in retirement to boot."

Note that Cadsuane is stronger than Kerene and there is a "sharp drop" from Kerene to Moiraine. If Cadsuane is one level above Kerene, Kerene is at least 2 levels above Moiraine or it would not be a "sharp drop" ... if Cadsuane is a 65 and Kerene a 60, then Moiraine couldn't be more than a 50. You would have to take 20 points from Lanfear's 100 to make Moiraine stronger than Cadsuane and that makes Cyndane too weak to be stronger than the other FS women.

Even if Cadsuane is a 45 Moiraine would be maybe a 35 at most meaning you'd still have to take 15 points from Lanfear, which is still too much for Cyndane to be stronger than Graendal without making all the other FS women far too weak!


If Moiraine is 30, and Cadsuane is 40, then you only need to take about 15 from Lanfear to make Moiraine stronger than Cadsuane, and only 10 to make her equal to Cadsuane.

The consensus has always been that the likes of Graendal are significantly weaker than Lanfear. Lanfear is most likely around 20% stronger than Graendal.


that 1. Cadsuane is so weak and 2. that the other FS women are 20% weaker than Lanfear. There is no way that Graendal would have been willing to go toe to toe with Lanfear in tFoH if she were that much weaker. Not to mention a 10 point spread does not equal the evidence from NS on how much stronger Cadsuane is than Moiraine while still leaving room for the "sharp drop" after Kerene.

Here's another NS quote

An Arrival

A number of women were stronger than she, but only one could be as much stronger as this one. Unwillingly, she looked over her shoulder.

But I'm not going to argue in circles with your opinions on OP strength ... it's been beaten to death as it is. Suffice to say I disagree with your assessment of strength


A 10% strength difference is most likely significant to them, given the low strength of the average Aes Sedai. And hereby I mean that if one Aes Sedai has a strength of 20, then 10% of that is 2. So a strength of 22 would no doubt be considered significantly greater than a strength of 20.

Which is perfectly reasonable, when you understand that a Moiraine strength channeler is only about 50% stronger than the average Aes Sedai. In that context, a difference of 10% is significant.

As for strength difference between Forsaken, well, we know that 3 Aes Sedai can take on Moghedien, according to Liandrin, but that 6 are not enough to take on a false Dragon of upper male Forsaken strength. So clearly there is a huge gap between the strongest and weakest Forsaken. In fact, the weakest Forsaken may barely be 50% of Rand's effective strength. And we know Lanfear comes close to matching Rand's effective strength.

So, if Lanfear has close to twice the effective strength of Moghedien, then why should there not be a 20% gap between Lanfear and some of the other Forsaken females?



Which even RJ stated was futile

as Dominic reported, Jordan did not have a single ranking of men and women:

Brandon confirmed to me post signing last summer that RJ had nothing to compare male vs. female strength. He kept two separate systems, one for women and one for men.


3 weak women held Semrihage too ... leading me to believe that she's not all that much stronger than Moghedien, we also know from Moiraine that 2x Egwene would overwhelm a female Forsaken. And she's 2x the average AS... she is a minimum of a 70 if 2 women her strength linked can overwhelm a 100 (they would be a 126 linked). Which means "Strong AS" are around a 35, making Moiraine more like a 40 and Cadsuane probably about a 60.

But we also saw 4 women hold a shield on Rand at Dumai's Wells! It's not until that shield is only held by 3 women that he breaks through.

Just because 6 women faced and lost to a False Dragon doesn't mean they were out muscled, more likely they were simply out fought by a man who was a better warrior than they were.

With that said I'm not going to further respond... tired of this discussion taking us nowhere ... just agree to disagree


Moiraine said: "Egwene and Aviendha MIGHT overwhelm one Forsaken. And all that needs to mean is that the two of them MIGHT be in the vicinity of a Forsaken's strength. If they're lucky, they might then emerge victorious from the fight. Where you get a minimum strength of 70 for Egwene, based on this quote, is beyond me.

As for three women holding Semirhage, that means you'd probably need 4 or more to TAKE her if she was already holding the Power.

As for males vs. females. We're talking about the EFFECTIVE strength here. What they can effectively achieve with the Power.

RJ's quote stated that SHIELDING someone is more difficult for someone of the opposite sex. But to overwhelm and defeat him is a different story. Then it is a simple battle of strength and skill. Three could apparently overwhelm Moghedien. 6 could not do so to a false Dragon.







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My Lanfear/Cyndane theory has been disproven. - 20/01/2010 05:12:58 PM 2767 Views
It was discussed - 20/01/2010 05:27:43 PM 1115 Views
Re: It was discussed - 20/01/2010 07:09:01 PM 898 Views
Maybe... - 20/01/2010 07:15:57 PM 834 Views
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Maybe there is a difference between male souls and female souls ... - 20/01/2010 09:35:57 PM 830 Views
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Thanks. - 20/01/2010 08:36:58 PM 943 Views
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It's NOT due to Stilling or Healing and it's NOT due to Cyndane's weaker body... - 20/01/2010 06:46:08 PM 927 Views
I think Moiraine's gaining strength seems a little too LotR. - 20/01/2010 06:55:34 PM 836 Views
I also like that theory - 20/01/2010 07:14:20 PM 872 Views
I think BS's error regarding Cyndane's strength can also be explained by this theory... - 20/01/2010 07:17:59 PM 829 Views
Yes perhaps - 20/01/2010 07:25:06 PM 865 Views
Cadsuane is considerably stronger than Moiraine - 20/01/2010 07:31:42 PM 844 Views
Nope... - 20/01/2010 07:38:55 PM 820 Views
I disagree as usual - 20/01/2010 07:45:29 PM 730 Views
We don't know the magnitude of what Aes Sedai consider a significant strength difference... - 20/01/2010 07:54:38 PM 820 Views
You are comparing Male and female strength here - 20/01/2010 08:18:45 PM 901 Views
Why do you misquote Moiraine? - 20/01/2010 08:39:55 PM 833 Views
Cadsuane isn't too strong - 21/01/2010 04:19:41 AM 840 Views
Actually... - 21/01/2010 05:57:43 AM 819 Views
Re: Actually... - 21/01/2010 12:31:53 PM 857 Views
Sorry, that was the Glossary... - 21/01/2010 08:07:56 PM 740 Views
- 22/01/2010 11:05:23 AM 926 Views
So Glossary or character? - 22/01/2010 10:22:15 PM 612 Views
Re: Actually... - 12/12/2010 04:42:22 PM 858 Views
Re: I think BS's error regarding Cyndane's strength can also be explained by this theory... - 20/01/2010 07:43:28 PM 827 Views
Agree with both your comments... - 20/01/2010 07:46:07 PM 839 Views
Re: Agree with both your comments... - 20/01/2010 08:24:16 PM 875 Views
But seriously... - 21/01/2010 12:14:16 PM 730 Views
Re: But seriously... - 21/01/2010 12:34:18 PM 903 Views
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Re: I don't think it has to be so unique... - 21/01/2010 04:49:42 PM 847 Views
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In her letter to Thom - 21/01/2010 02:55:32 PM 845 Views
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Yes, and that is often overlooked - 21/01/2010 04:48:08 PM 745 Views
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Nods in agreement - 21/01/2010 06:24:59 PM 884 Views
I think the "bubble of hope" was simply ... - 21/01/2010 07:08:44 PM 675 Views
Agreed *NM* - 21/01/2010 11:38:43 PM 505 Views
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I always figured Lanfear bargained away some power to escape the Finns - 20/01/2010 07:37:31 PM 820 Views
But... - 20/01/2010 07:50:14 PM 873 Views
Re: My Lanfear/Cyndane theory has been disproven. - 20/01/2010 07:51:38 PM 1075 Views
That idea has also been disproven ... - 20/01/2010 08:19:22 PM 961 Views
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The closest I ever saw was the "Lightfriend/Purple Ajah" theory - 20/01/2010 08:46:20 PM 1097 Views
Yeah, the Verin revelation was cool... - 20/01/2010 08:48:53 PM 811 Views
Re: That idea has also been disproven ... - 21/01/2010 05:12:45 PM 802 Views
I think it may be more simple than it seems. - 21/01/2010 04:15:05 PM 921 Views
Doesn't fit with BS's words - 21/01/2010 04:27:43 PM 760 Views
Also ... - 21/01/2010 04:32:58 PM 725 Views
I don't think BS words or Cyndane's comments really prove anything. - 21/01/2010 04:42:59 PM 856 Views
BS says that Cyndane is truly weaker. So, this theory is out. *NM* - 21/01/2010 04:46:48 PM 549 Views
Re: BS says that Cyndane is truly weaker. So, this theory is out. - 21/01/2010 04:49:09 PM 847 Views
Well, actually - 21/01/2010 04:54:17 PM 760 Views
Re: Well, actually - 21/01/2010 05:11:10 PM 770 Views
The wording is absolutely unambiguous, but I suppose one can argue everything. *NM* - 21/01/2010 05:24:03 PM 571 Views
Re: The wording is absolutely unambiguous, but I suppose one can argue everything. - 21/01/2010 06:07:09 PM 1077 Views
I agree - 21/01/2010 06:23:34 PM 840 Views
Re: I agree - 21/01/2010 07:59:36 PM 840 Views
Re: I agree - 22/01/2010 07:23:37 AM 749 Views
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I think... - 21/01/2010 06:46:57 PM 802 Views
Re: I think... - 21/01/2010 06:58:49 PM 689 Views
You are right... - 21/01/2010 07:12:47 PM 790 Views
Re: You are right... - 21/01/2010 07:21:00 PM 893 Views
Anyone who thinks she's hiding her strength is wrong - 21/01/2010 08:09:42 PM 1096 Views
Indeed, it's pretty idiotic. *NM* - 21/01/2010 08:19:53 PM 451 Views
Dude... - 21/01/2010 08:51:08 PM 834 Views
Re: Dude... - 22/01/2010 11:14:08 AM 865 Views
Re: Dude... - 22/01/2010 10:21:15 PM 1008 Views
Meh - 21/01/2010 11:19:16 PM 691 Views
Re: Meh - 22/01/2010 11:15:20 AM 844 Views
Re: Meh - 22/01/2010 03:09:10 PM 790 Views
Re: Meh - 22/01/2010 04:15:51 PM 813 Views
actually if one really wants to figure out what happened to Cyndane - 21/01/2010 07:00:33 PM 980 Views
Dumb question, but do transmigrated souls need to re-reach their full potential? - 21/01/2010 06:19:57 PM 821 Views
It seems like they start out as powerful as they were, but I don't think it's ever been stated *NM* - 21/01/2010 06:44:45 PM 539 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 21/01/2010 07:03:13 PM 465 Views
That's what I thought. *NM* - 21/01/2010 10:05:38 PM 483 Views

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