First, let's all agree that Mesaana is still in the White Tower. Actually, for those who don't know, Sanderson confirmed this in a Q&A:
Q: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?
A: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book. Egwene is not incorrect.
And, let's agree that she is posing as an AS (I know this is a debatable point, but we need to assume she is for this discussion to have any meaning).
Sanderson also stated the following, about AS in the White Tower:
Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths.
Note: BS says that all remaing WT AS retook ALL 3 OATHS, so either Mesaana is currently bound by all 3, or by none. More on this below.
So, let's agree that this statement includes Mesaana, so that Mesaana at least appeared to retake the 3 Oaths during the process in which all the remaining WT AS retook them.
The question I want to address is ... is Mesaana bound by the 3 Oaths?
Now, I've seen it suggested that Mesaana IS bound by the 3 Oaths, and that she was able to answer "Are you a darkfriend" with "No", because she doesn't consider herself to be a lowly DF, she considers herself to be a Chosen, which she truly views as a legitmate distinction.
Sanderson also has said some things on this particular issue:
Q: Do the Forsaken consider themselves Darkfriends?
A: Oooh, you are tricky! I know what you’re doing. [For those that don't, this guy is trying to figure out if this is how Mesaana beat the Oath Rod. - Terez] I would say that, in general, yes they do consider themselves Darkfriends, though there are ways somebody would be able to get around that. I would say, yes, that that is not the sort of mental gymnastics that…it is very easy to convince yourself that you are not a Darkfriend.
Q: [Messana] could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?
A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it.
However, based on the bolded part of BS's answer above, even if Mesaana could have replied "No" to the DF question while under the do-not-lie Oath (which BS says may have been possible), I don't think that is what happened.
The key here is, BS says that there is a way to defeat the Oath Rod, and (as I interpret his response) that we should focus on that issue, with respect to the Mesaana question, not on the issue of whether she could simply have replied "No" to the DF question while under the do-not-lie Oath.
Which I take to mean ... Mesaana is not currently bound by ANY of the 3 Oaths. This makes sense, actually, because regardless of the do-not-lie Oath and whether she could have answered "No" to the DF question, Mesaana would never have let herself be bound not to use the OP as a weapon.
Therefore, as I see it, there are 2 possibilites:
1) The 3 Oaths "activated" when Mesaana swore them, but she knew a way to deactivate them, and did so before she answered the question about being a DF.
2) The 3 Oaths never activated when Mesaana swore them. She knew a way to keep the Oaths from activating.
And my guess is, 2) is almost certainly the correct answer. If 1) were possible, Binders/Oath Rods would have been useless in the AoL - criminal channelers (like, say, Semirhage) could have sworn any Oath they were forced to swear, and then deactivate it/them anytime thereafter, unbeknownst to anyone else.
Whereas with 2), the AoL AS who were putting the Binder on a criminal channeler could (and certainly would) ensure that the criminal wasn't trying any tricks to defeat the Oath Rod during the process, to ensure that the Oaths actually activated. Whereas, the 3rd Age AS don't know about any tricks to defeat the Oath Rod, so they don't know to look for one, and Mesaana could get away with it.
So the question is, what sort of trick did Mesaana use to prevent the Oaths from activating?
I saw this discussed very briefly in another post, and in that post someone (LitN, I think) suggested that Mesaana put some sort of Keeper weave around herself, which prevented the Oaths from activating on her (the idea being that nothing external can pass through a Keeper weave to affect whatever is behind it).
This is an interesting idea - Mesaana could have inverted the Keeper weave, so that no one knew it was there. So this could be the answer (or something similar to this - some sort of invisible "shield weave" that prevented the Oaths from activating).
But, we don't know for sure that a Keeper or any other type of shield-weave would actually prevent the Oaths from activating. It's just speculation
Another possibility I was thinking of is ... I'm pretty sure we know for certain that a Binder only works on channelers. So, maybe Mesaana knows and utilized a weave that essentially made herself a non-channeler during the time she took the Oaths, so that nothing actually happened when she took them. We know the Forsaken know of tricks that make themselves appear to be non-channelers (e.g. Lanfear must have done so when she masqueraded as Keile Shaogi), so maybe this idea isn't too much of a stretch.
In this case, we know the idea would work if such a weave is possible, since we know Binders only work on channelers.
Anyone else have any ideas on what Mesaana could have done?
I'm guessing that she couldn't have, say, subtley diverted the flow of Spirit that was channeled into the Oath Rod to activate it - that would have been noticeable to others, I would think.
Q: Is Mesaana still in the Tower?
A: Egwene makes some deductions about this at the end of the book. Egwene is not incorrect.
And, let's agree that she is posing as an AS (I know this is a debatable point, but we need to assume she is for this discussion to have any meaning).
Sanderson also stated the following, about AS in the White Tower:
Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths.
Note: BS says that all remaing WT AS retook ALL 3 OATHS, so either Mesaana is currently bound by all 3, or by none. More on this below.
So, let's agree that this statement includes Mesaana, so that Mesaana at least appeared to retake the 3 Oaths during the process in which all the remaining WT AS retook them.
The question I want to address is ... is Mesaana bound by the 3 Oaths?
Now, I've seen it suggested that Mesaana IS bound by the 3 Oaths, and that she was able to answer "Are you a darkfriend" with "No", because she doesn't consider herself to be a lowly DF, she considers herself to be a Chosen, which she truly views as a legitmate distinction.
Sanderson also has said some things on this particular issue:
Q: Do the Forsaken consider themselves Darkfriends?
A: Oooh, you are tricky! I know what you’re doing. [For those that don't, this guy is trying to figure out if this is how Mesaana beat the Oath Rod. - Terez] I would say that, in general, yes they do consider themselves Darkfriends, though there are ways somebody would be able to get around that. I would say, yes, that that is not the sort of mental gymnastics that…it is very easy to convince yourself that you are not a Darkfriend.
Q: [Messana] could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?
A: As long as she believed it to be true. Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the Three Oaths. You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod. There is a way to do it.
However, based on the bolded part of BS's answer above, even if Mesaana could have replied "No" to the DF question while under the do-not-lie Oath (which BS says may have been possible), I don't think that is what happened.
The key here is, BS says that there is a way to defeat the Oath Rod, and (as I interpret his response) that we should focus on that issue, with respect to the Mesaana question, not on the issue of whether she could simply have replied "No" to the DF question while under the do-not-lie Oath.
Which I take to mean ... Mesaana is not currently bound by ANY of the 3 Oaths. This makes sense, actually, because regardless of the do-not-lie Oath and whether she could have answered "No" to the DF question, Mesaana would never have let herself be bound not to use the OP as a weapon.
Therefore, as I see it, there are 2 possibilites:
1) The 3 Oaths "activated" when Mesaana swore them, but she knew a way to deactivate them, and did so before she answered the question about being a DF.
2) The 3 Oaths never activated when Mesaana swore them. She knew a way to keep the Oaths from activating.
And my guess is, 2) is almost certainly the correct answer. If 1) were possible, Binders/Oath Rods would have been useless in the AoL - criminal channelers (like, say, Semirhage) could have sworn any Oath they were forced to swear, and then deactivate it/them anytime thereafter, unbeknownst to anyone else.
Whereas with 2), the AoL AS who were putting the Binder on a criminal channeler could (and certainly would) ensure that the criminal wasn't trying any tricks to defeat the Oath Rod during the process, to ensure that the Oaths actually activated. Whereas, the 3rd Age AS don't know about any tricks to defeat the Oath Rod, so they don't know to look for one, and Mesaana could get away with it.
So the question is, what sort of trick did Mesaana use to prevent the Oaths from activating?
I saw this discussed very briefly in another post, and in that post someone (LitN, I think) suggested that Mesaana put some sort of Keeper weave around herself, which prevented the Oaths from activating on her (the idea being that nothing external can pass through a Keeper weave to affect whatever is behind it).
This is an interesting idea - Mesaana could have inverted the Keeper weave, so that no one knew it was there. So this could be the answer (or something similar to this - some sort of invisible "shield weave" that prevented the Oaths from activating).
But, we don't know for sure that a Keeper or any other type of shield-weave would actually prevent the Oaths from activating. It's just speculation
Another possibility I was thinking of is ... I'm pretty sure we know for certain that a Binder only works on channelers. So, maybe Mesaana knows and utilized a weave that essentially made herself a non-channeler during the time she took the Oaths, so that nothing actually happened when she took them. We know the Forsaken know of tricks that make themselves appear to be non-channelers (e.g. Lanfear must have done so when she masqueraded as Keile Shaogi), so maybe this idea isn't too much of a stretch.
In this case, we know the idea would work if such a weave is possible, since we know Binders only work on channelers.
Anyone else have any ideas on what Mesaana could have done?
I'm guessing that she couldn't have, say, subtley diverted the flow of Spirit that was channeled into the Oath Rod to activate it - that would have been noticeable to others, I would think.
Mesaana took the Oaths, said she wasn't Black Ajah, thinking she would forswear those Oaths the first moment she got. Also, I think Mesaana wouldn't have cared. I forget when, or who, but someone said that there were so many loopholes in the Oaths that they might as well not exist. I think it was a darkfriend....hmm...
Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.
κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.
Mesaana and defeating the Oath Rod
18/01/2010 04:50:29 PM
- 2570 Views
I'm think Mesaana's hand is quicker than the eye
18/01/2010 05:12:12 PM
- 1224 Views
Re: I'm think Mesaana's hand is quicker than the eye
18/01/2010 05:43:26 PM
- 1119 Views
I like that idea ...
18/01/2010 06:07:09 PM
- 1001 Views
Re: I'm think Mesaana's hand is quicker than the eye
18/01/2010 05:58:44 PM
- 990 Views
I don't think Messana would have fallen over dead
18/01/2010 06:06:35 PM
- 1046 Views
I agree ...
18/01/2010 06:15:25 PM
- 923 Views
I'm not sure
18/01/2010 06:54:51 PM
- 954 Views
It didn't when Romanda retook her Oaths in TGS
18/01/2010 07:13:20 PM
- 775 Views
Hmmm ...
18/01/2010 07:24:51 PM
- 940 Views
No she unswore them and retook them
18/01/2010 07:33:30 PM
- 998 Views
Yeah, I realized that after I posted, so I editted my post (again) ...
18/01/2010 07:36:39 PM
- 963 Views
I'm not sure I follow
18/01/2010 07:41:19 PM
- 965 Views
The point I was trying to make was ...
18/01/2010 08:05:16 PM
- 755 Views
Now I get it ... seems needlessly complex for the Oath Rod though
18/01/2010 08:21:35 PM
- 754 Views
What you suggested is pretty much what I've always thought ...
18/01/2010 08:39:30 PM
- 768 Views
yup
18/01/2010 09:02:04 PM
- 655 Views
I'm with you, though ...
18/01/2010 09:27:59 PM
- 920 Views
The closest evidence we have is a Stilled/Burned out woman
18/01/2010 09:49:41 PM
- 757 Views
But if being unbound reverts you to your normal lifespan, then being bound isn't really a punishment *NM*
18/01/2010 09:52:29 PM
- 387 Views
Re: I'm not sure
18/01/2010 07:22:34 PM
- 823 Views
interesting
18/01/2010 07:46:12 PM
- 659 Views
Re: interesting
18/01/2010 08:18:11 PM
- 800 Views
The Dark Ones Mark possibly could black the oath rod? *NM*
20/01/2010 01:28:08 AM
- 371 Views
No, that can't be it, because when AS become Black Ajah ...
20/01/2010 02:53:21 PM
- 730 Views
But Alviarin's mark is different. Perhaps the mark of a FS is too *NM*
20/01/2010 04:21:16 PM
- 350 Views
Good point. I sort of misinterpreted what Kieran was suggesting. *NM*
20/01/2010 07:19:02 PM
- 370 Views
Re: Good point. I sort of misinterpreted what Kieran was suggesting.
22/01/2010 01:52:51 AM
- 893 Views
actually it's different
22/01/2010 07:32:18 AM
- 836 Views
actually I think it's the same...
23/01/2010 01:49:19 AM
- 549 Views
Nup. Unlike the FS, her mark will not allow her to order Darkspawn (plus more). *NM*
23/01/2010 11:50:36 AM
- 384 Views
Which has nothing to do with my post regarding the Oath rod... *NM*
24/01/2010 10:44:59 PM
- 380 Views
One point...
18/01/2010 06:12:26 PM
- 956 Views
Re: Mesaana and defeating the Oath Rod
18/01/2010 09:43:34 PM
- 899 Views
I'm thinking the point of the thread is to discuss how to beat the Oath Rod, not Mesaana's disguise
18/01/2010 09:59:18 PM
- 724 Views
Right, and also ...
18/01/2010 10:17:11 PM
- 744 Views
Except that the best way to 'defeat' the Oath rod is - not to take the Oaths at all
19/01/2010 03:18:43 AM
- 654 Views
IMHO...
19/01/2010 03:41:10 AM
- 939 Views
Another interesting possibility
19/01/2010 05:08:42 PM
- 744 Views
I'd say it was highly unlikely that the Binder/Oath Rod works that way. *NM*
19/01/2010 06:06:49 PM
- 319 Views
We've seen pretty weird stuff happens before
19/01/2010 06:30:12 PM
- 838 Views
Oh, I agree ...
19/01/2010 06:47:52 PM
- 611 Views
Re: Oh, I agree ... found a few tidbits ... EDIT
19/01/2010 06:55:22 PM
- 761 Views
Heh, I had just dug up that quote myself, before I saw your edit ...
19/01/2010 07:17:19 PM
- 776 Views
I agree, it seems as if Moghedien just effectively transmigrated Birgitte
19/01/2010 10:00:45 PM
- 858 Views
she could just be posing as a non-channeler.
19/01/2010 05:52:01 PM
- 723 Views
If RJ/Brandon lied about that... then maybe Demandred is Taim after all. *NM*
20/01/2010 03:20:42 AM
- 324 Views
To speak no word that is not true
19/01/2010 10:06:30 PM
- 796 Views
Could there be a true word, though?
20/01/2010 03:47:46 PM
- 1044 Views
I had a similar discussion with someone else, long ago ...
20/01/2010 04:05:03 PM
- 705 Views
Or would just be able to say "true, true. True true true, true true." etc. *NM*
21/01/2010 06:17:20 PM
- 365 Views
In going through some old RJ quotes I found this gem...
19/01/2010 10:22:03 PM
- 1062 Views
Nice find! Not sure if that is a "way to defeat the Oath Rod" exactly, but it's certainly feasible.
20/01/2010 03:19:51 AM
- 886 Views
Wow, that's great. I wonder what else can be created there, like sa'angeals, etc.
20/01/2010 03:54:01 AM
- 683 Views
Good find, I had forgotten about that quote ...
20/01/2010 02:42:55 PM
- 801 Views
Yes
20/01/2010 03:03:53 PM
- 788 Views
Oh I agree! I just thought it was funny that RJ made such a quote
20/01/2010 04:20:09 PM
- 781 Views
In the AoL...
20/01/2010 04:49:24 PM
- 867 Views
I was thinking this too
20/01/2010 07:18:19 PM
- 818 Views
I like it, mainly because it points to Mesaana being bested by Egwene in T'A'R
21/01/2010 04:26:34 PM
- 690 Views
maybe she warded herself before goin in or just set her frame of mind to beat it *NM*
21/01/2010 02:07:17 AM
- 406 Views