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See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM
That it doesn't kill the "Graendal was there"-theory, all the quotes rather indicate that truly just SH and Elza were involved - as it seems to be the case in the book - because only these two characters are mentioned regarding the scene. It seems especially unlikely that the Compulsion expert Graendal was apparently needed to find out that Elza was under Compulsion and to teach her the necessary weaves, but that Graendal wouldn't remove the Compulsion then or simply take the DM herself (after probably checking what weaves would actually be needed for Elza to open the box ). It's even said that Elza was "essential" for SH for getting things done (since SH is limited in affecting the physical world), though one wonders why SH couldn't use Graendal, if she was anyway already involved.

If Graendal saw Elza in TAR, taught her some weaves to undo the wards and noticed she was compelled, there wasn't much she could do there. The compulsion would be real world, and as such not removable in TAR.

And as for why Brandon doesn't hint at the presence of someone else... that is obvious. He doesn't want to spoil the surprise.

My reason for suspecting Granedal is that this whole scene was very psychological. Several things were necessary:

1) Semirhage would try to torture Rand. I think Granedal's comments on Semirhage's cold, one track mind in the prologue suggests that she would have foreseen this.

2) Rand would not respond to the torture, so Semi would have to turn to Min. This in turn would remind Rand forcefully of Ilyna, and this would drive him to seek the TP.

The 2nd point is what cinches it for me. Graendal has studied people with voices in their head. It is possible that she knew what Rand's being in contact with LTT meant, and thus engineered this to give him pain of heart as commanded.

The plan seems to cerebral and psychological to be Moridin's. Too indirect, playing too much on the emotions of the characters involved. That's the signature of Graendal.

Further, the only thing her prologue showed us was that she knew Semi was captured (and that Moridin was so pissed he was ready to sacrifice her) and that she was ordered to mentally torture Rand.

Both these facts were critical in a crime that depended on the psychology of the victim. Not seeing some involvement from Graendal in this seems absurd to me.
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Elza's Compulsion - 14/01/2010 08:41:04 PM 1948 Views
I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story - 14/01/2010 09:12:05 PM 893 Views
I disagree - 14/01/2010 09:27:27 PM 735 Views
except work with Semirhage! - 14/01/2010 09:34:37 PM 675 Views
Well... - 14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM 742 Views
SH can't channel thus can't teach Elza anything *NM* - 14/01/2010 10:20:19 PM 265 Views
Yeah, but according to BS, he apparently could "give her the knowledge". *shrug* *NM* - 15/01/2010 07:16:22 AM 242 Views
that's your interpretation of the quote - 15/01/2010 05:58:30 PM 580 Views
This and the others quotes suggest that only SH and Elza were involved *NM* - 16/01/2010 09:51:24 AM 216 Views
As I said that's certainly one of of interpreting the quotes - 16/01/2010 03:46:55 PM 513 Views
The question is... - 16/01/2010 03:59:24 PM 532 Views
Re: The question is... - 16/01/2010 04:02:55 PM 520 Views
Yeah, as I said elsewhere, would be a nice question for BS, if there was another Forsaken. *NM* - 16/01/2010 04:08:05 PM 560 Views
I bet you anything he'd giva a big fat RAFO to that - 16/01/2010 04:08:58 PM 525 Views
BS spoke quite openly about this scene, though - 16/01/2010 04:16:09 PM 547 Views
always worth a try, but wasn't he asked to be less open recently? - 16/01/2010 04:31:54 PM 519 Views
Shaidar Haran can't channel. - 14/01/2010 09:34:51 PM 879 Views
I know... - 14/01/2010 09:45:15 PM 738 Views
I agree with you, for a related but slightly different reason ... - 14/01/2010 09:58:28 PM 820 Views
That doesn't prove anything... - 14/01/2010 10:07:46 PM 764 Views
It proves enough for me ... - 14/01/2010 10:26:28 PM 649 Views
Re: That doesn't prove anything... - 15/01/2010 11:03:05 AM 490 Views
not really - 15/01/2010 05:29:25 PM 511 Views
I don't understand your theory - 16/01/2010 05:08:03 PM 501 Views
It's very simple - 16/01/2010 06:17:36 PM 493 Views
So in other words - 17/01/2010 06:31:58 PM 609 Views
no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct - 17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM 513 Views
Re: no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct - 18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM 537 Views
I'm talking about implanting knowledge into someone elses head - 18/01/2010 05:37:32 AM 538 Views
Here's Brandon's one answer - 18/01/2010 05:20:20 PM 531 Views
But... - 18/01/2010 05:48:54 PM 519 Views
Exactly my point - 18/01/2010 06:24:25 PM 555 Views
But by this logic... - 18/01/2010 06:50:43 PM 492 Views
Yes... - 18/01/2010 07:00:40 PM 550 Views
While you are right... - 18/01/2010 08:44:19 PM 538 Views
as we've discussed in another thread - 18/01/2010 09:08:56 PM 914 Views
I mean... - 19/01/2010 02:21:39 PM 533 Views
Weren't they specifically called Weaves that haven't been seen since the AoL? - 19/01/2010 05:26:38 PM 554 Views
"Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves" is the quote. - 19/01/2010 06:14:22 PM 494 Views
Well if they were secret Ajah weaves someone would have recognized them *NM* - 19/01/2010 06:21:19 PM 240 Views
Maybe secret BA weaves... - 19/01/2010 06:37:42 PM 740 Views
Possible since she was the only BA in the area - 19/01/2010 06:40:38 PM 775 Views
See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret... - 18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM 578 Views
I have a hard time... - 19/01/2010 02:17:52 PM 590 Views
I agree with you - 19/01/2010 04:45:59 PM 512 Views
and you may very well be correct - 19/01/2010 05:39:02 PM 731 Views
Yet Rand/LTT tells us only a few chapters later - 14/01/2010 10:27:57 PM 599 Views
Anything is possible ... - 14/01/2010 10:54:46 PM 604 Views
who knows - 14/01/2010 11:21:43 PM 575 Views
It's not all that convoluted, though ... - 15/01/2010 03:26:01 PM 482 Views
Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end - 15/01/2010 05:57:10 PM 660 Views
Re: Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end - 15/01/2010 06:25:32 PM 542 Views
Re: Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end - 15/01/2010 06:44:26 PM 511 Views
Good point! - 15/01/2010 07:19:00 AM 593 Views
Re: Good point! - 15/01/2010 05:30:12 PM 489 Views
I agree - 16/01/2010 09:50:09 AM 485 Views
what doesn't make sense about this to me - 15/01/2010 06:04:45 PM 558 Views
Re: what doesn't make sense about this to me - 15/01/2010 06:29:59 PM 554 Views
damn double posting - 15/01/2010 07:04:56 PM 497 Views
As it is often the case... - 16/01/2010 09:30:56 AM 593 Views
go re-read my statements and quit putting words in my mouth please. - 16/01/2010 03:59:52 PM 551 Views
Well... - 16/01/2010 04:14:28 PM 440 Views
as I said it's also possible that SH has new abilities - 16/01/2010 04:33:30 PM 484 Views
Re: I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story - 14/01/2010 09:30:53 PM 590 Views
Uhhh? - 14/01/2010 09:13:13 PM 731 Views
One point - 14/01/2010 09:20:09 PM 685 Views
Re: One point - 14/01/2010 09:32:00 PM 603 Views
Elza truly believes that... - 14/01/2010 09:38:35 PM 601 Views
Elza "found a reason to follow the Compulsion" - 14/01/2010 11:23:33 PM 650 Views
So, it came from her, and would not go when the Compulsion was removed. - 15/01/2010 05:56:32 AM 580 Views
fair enough - 16/01/2010 04:34:05 PM 637 Views
Not quite - 14/01/2010 09:38:45 PM 625 Views

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