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Well... Etzel Send a noteboard - 14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
BS's quotes suggest that there were only SH and Elza involved:

Q. "How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?"

A. "Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her."

We don't know how, but apparently SH gave Elza this knowledge, when she was made into his tool.

That's a huge leap. We have zero evidence that SH would have any such ability! SH could have just taken his "pleasure" with her which as we saw from Mesaana, not pleasant.


BS's statement indicates that the knowledge came from SH (note that BS doesn't say that someone thought AoL weaves) during the process in which Elza became his tool. We really don't know what SH is capable of, but he certainly becomes more and more powerful.


And:

Q: "You mention that Shaidar Haran has quite a few limitations on his power. Can you give us a few concrete examples of these limitations?"

A: "Shaidar Haran needs a minion to most of his work for him. Elza was essential to Shaidar Haran in getting things done."

If Graendal (or one of Moridin's pets) was there, Elza certainly wouldn't be that essential for SH to getting things done. Graendal could have done everything even better than Elza.

Why, when they had a perfectly easy minion at hand, would they risk putting another FS woman in the room with Semi... who was also being tasked with getting back in S'T's good graces?

All I'm saying is that Graendal was the source of teaching Elza the weaves and detected her Compulsion (something SH has not been able to do in the past).


There was no need to teach Elza those things, if Graendal could fetch the Domination Band. Then she could give it Elza. However, that Elza was "essential", indicates that SH had no other minion - like e.g. Graendal - to use in this situation.
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Elza's Compulsion Sidious - 14/01/2010 08:41:04 PM 2190 Views
I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 09:12:05 PM 1110 Views
I disagree Etzel - 14/01/2010 09:27:27 PM 981 Views
except work with Semirhage! darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 09:34:37 PM 923 Views
Well... Etzel - 14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM 1071 Views
SH can't channel thus can't teach Elza anything *NM* darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 10:20:19 PM 382 Views
Yeah, but according to BS, he apparently could "give her the knowledge". *shrug* *NM* Etzel - 15/01/2010 07:16:22 AM 336 Views
that's your interpretation of the quote darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 05:58:30 PM 796 Views
This and the others quotes suggest that only SH and Elza were involved *NM* Etzel - 16/01/2010 09:51:24 AM 311 Views
As I said that's certainly one of of interpreting the quotes darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 03:46:55 PM 724 Views
The question is... Etzel - 16/01/2010 03:59:24 PM 741 Views
Re: The question is... darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:02:55 PM 733 Views
Yeah, as I said elsewhere, would be a nice question for BS, if there was another Forsaken. *NM* Etzel - 16/01/2010 04:08:05 PM 828 Views
I bet you anything he'd giva a big fat RAFO to that darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:08:58 PM 756 Views
BS spoke quite openly about this scene, though Etzel - 16/01/2010 04:16:09 PM 796 Views
always worth a try, but wasn't he asked to be less open recently? darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:31:54 PM 772 Views
Shaidar Haran can't channel. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/01/2010 09:34:51 PM 1127 Views
I know... Etzel - 14/01/2010 09:45:15 PM 965 Views
I agree with you, for a related but slightly different reason ... Shishka - 14/01/2010 09:58:28 PM 1055 Views
That doesn't prove anything... fionwe1987 - 14/01/2010 10:07:46 PM 986 Views
It proves enough for me ... Shishka - 14/01/2010 10:26:28 PM 901 Views
Re: That doesn't prove anything... Sidious - 15/01/2010 11:03:05 AM 702 Views
not really darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 05:29:25 PM 754 Views
I don't understand your theory Sidious - 16/01/2010 05:08:03 PM 705 Views
It's very simple darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 06:17:36 PM 705 Views
So in other words Sidious - 17/01/2010 06:31:58 PM 821 Views
no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct darius_sedai - 17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM 725 Views
Re: no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct Sidious - 18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM 754 Views
I'm talking about implanting knowledge into someone elses head darius_sedai - 18/01/2010 05:37:32 AM 733 Views
Here's Brandon's one answer Sidious - 18/01/2010 05:20:20 PM 780 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 18/01/2010 05:48:54 PM 740 Views
Exactly my point darius_sedai - 18/01/2010 06:24:25 PM 756 Views
But by this logic... Etzel - 18/01/2010 06:50:43 PM 702 Views
Yes... fionwe1987 - 18/01/2010 07:00:40 PM 744 Views
While you are right... Etzel - 18/01/2010 08:44:19 PM 735 Views
as we've discussed in another thread darius_sedai - 18/01/2010 09:08:56 PM 1137 Views
I mean... Etzel - 19/01/2010 02:21:39 PM 768 Views
Weren't they specifically called Weaves that haven't been seen since the AoL? darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 05:26:38 PM 767 Views
"Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves" is the quote. Etzel - 19/01/2010 06:14:22 PM 699 Views
Well if they were secret Ajah weaves someone would have recognized them *NM* darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 06:21:19 PM 329 Views
Maybe secret BA weaves... Etzel - 19/01/2010 06:37:42 PM 953 Views
Possible since she was the only BA in the area darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 06:40:38 PM 991 Views
See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret... fionwe1987 - 18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM 837 Views
I have a hard time... Etzel - 19/01/2010 02:17:52 PM 822 Views
I agree with you Sidious - 19/01/2010 04:45:59 PM 783 Views
and you may very well be correct darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 05:39:02 PM 979 Views
Yet Rand/LTT tells us only a few chapters later darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 10:27:57 PM 805 Views
Anything is possible ... Shishka - 14/01/2010 10:54:46 PM 822 Views
who knows darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 11:21:43 PM 784 Views
It's not all that convoluted, though ... Shishka - 15/01/2010 03:26:01 PM 691 Views
Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 05:57:10 PM 880 Views
Re: Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end Shishka - 15/01/2010 06:25:32 PM 765 Views
Re: Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 06:44:26 PM 717 Views
Good point! Etzel - 15/01/2010 07:19:00 AM 809 Views
Re: Good point! Shishka - 15/01/2010 05:30:12 PM 705 Views
I agree Etzel - 16/01/2010 09:50:09 AM 688 Views
what doesn't make sense about this to me darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 06:04:45 PM 767 Views
Re: what doesn't make sense about this to me Shishka - 15/01/2010 06:29:59 PM 787 Views
this makes my head hurt ... or maybe all that red wine I drank last night is doing that darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 07:04:23 PM 755 Views
damn double posting darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 07:04:56 PM 695 Views
As it is often the case... Etzel - 16/01/2010 09:30:56 AM 793 Views
go re-read my statements and quit putting words in my mouth please. darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 03:59:52 PM 755 Views
Well... Etzel - 16/01/2010 04:14:28 PM 647 Views
as I said it's also possible that SH has new abilities darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:33:30 PM 696 Views
Re: I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/01/2010 09:30:53 PM 802 Views
Uhhh? fionwe1987 - 14/01/2010 09:13:13 PM 1001 Views
One point darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 09:20:09 PM 877 Views
Re: One point Oberonus - 14/01/2010 09:32:00 PM 817 Views
Elza truly believes that... fionwe1987 - 14/01/2010 09:38:35 PM 818 Views
Elza "found a reason to follow the Compulsion" darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 11:23:33 PM 868 Views
So, it came from her, and would not go when the Compulsion was removed. Cannoli - 15/01/2010 05:56:32 AM 820 Views
fair enough darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:34:05 PM 840 Views
Not quite rAndy aL - 14/01/2010 09:38:45 PM 837 Views
But that could mean that they were to start the LB between Rand and the Great Lord immediately *NM* Voscaia Sedai - 16/01/2010 01:04:32 PM 329 Views
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