Clearly, strength, and not strength levels, follow a bell curve distribution. This means the X-axis for this curve is strength and the y axis is the number of people who have that strength. RJ has said this flat out, and I fail to see the point in debating this.
Because you're splitting hairs. RJ never knew the absolute strengths of his channelers - he admits it's a 21 level list. You can't prove that a level 1 is twice as strong as a level 10 - you can only talk about the prevalence of that level.
But he said it was a distribution of strength! He never gave us raw values, but that statement makes it plain that the raw values of strength are in the X-axis. That is the mathematical intent of his statement. How can you disagree with that?
Not at all. He spoke about the percentage of women who would qualify for the shawl, saying that a third are too weak. You can't place a value on more than that.
Why ever not?
Because adding several levels above Nynaeve, or even one level, would cause an imbalance and there's no evidence that he never conceived of the weakest channelers like Morgase.
What does this even mean?
It is about the prevalence of actual strength! The two are connected, not mutually exclusive! Honestly...
It is about the prevalence of actual strength! The two are connected, not mutually exclusive! Honestly...
I'm saying you can't put a value on the 21-levels based on the bell curve.
Well, if the x-axis is channeler level, why didn't RJ say channeler placement in the 21 levels follows a bell curve? Why did he say channeler strength follows a bell curve distribution?
RJ only has the levels. He doesn't have anything else. Really..
She says Therava and Someryn are stronger. That says nothing about how many equal her, does it?
It's possible that some equal her.
We also have Kiruna's respectful placement of the Wise Ones. She says quite a few of them are very worthy. This was a sample of 90, which included Sorilea, Amys, Melanie and maybe even Tamela and Viendre.
I'd be surprised if there weren't some who had Kiruna's strength.
But RJ's own strictures on OP strength distribution do support this, and do not support your placement of the average at 20! Heck, even mathematics disagrees with your placement.
No, not really. In fact, without RJ's bell curve quote you probably can't prove a single claim regarding your strength list. There are many quotes to refute it. You're clutching to this quote when in fact it lends almost no evidence by way of female strength, only how common each level is.
These quotes all come from Aes Sedai, for whom the statement is indeed true. Notice that with the Wise Ones, no such comments exist. Melaine says she is stronger than most Aes Sedai, then says nothing at all about being similarly remarkable among the Wise Ones. That honor is reserved for Aviendha.
So omission is evidence now?
Okay. Then why does Silviana say that two women guarding her at night is a mere caution? In the middle of the night, with the forkroot worn out, Egwene would be at full strength. Yet, Barasine is apparently sufficient to hold her. How?
I don't know... maybe Reds are practiced at shielding. We know for a fact that Amys can't hold Egwene properly, so what more do you need?
She thought that in book one. Since then, she has fought Aginor, and seen Lanfear's strength in the Rings! She obviously knows more about Forsaken strength at that point than Egwene!
She thought that in book 3. It's likely Moiraine thinks that both of the women are very strong and together can match an extremely strong foe. There's nothing wrong with that assertion. I myself think that Egwene has half of Rand's full potential, so I don't know why it's an issue for her to challenge his weaker Forsaken foes linked with Aviendha.
What do you mean no evidence? Here's the quote...
At this distance, there were limits to what he could do. In fact, it was about as far as he could do anything, really, without angreal or sa ‘angreal. Very likely that was why the women were channeling one lightning bolt at a time, one explosion; if he was at his boundary, they must be stretching theirs.
If Egwene is roughly half as strong as Rand, how the hell is she making fifty foot high explosions of earth at a distance that Rand himself says is the very edge of his ability?
At this distance, there were limits to what he could do. In fact, it was about as far as he could do anything, really, without angreal or sa ‘angreal. Very likely that was why the women were channeling one lightning bolt at a time, one explosion; if he was at his boundary, they must be stretching theirs.
If Egwene is roughly half as strong as Rand, how the hell is she making fifty foot high explosions of earth at a distance that Rand himself says is the very edge of his ability?
She's obviously straining herself. Rand says so.
Who said they were stronger? I only contend that linked, they were able to match him and an angreal. And of they were not linked, things are clearly wonky here. Rand himself says he's stronger, and can reach farther. That they match him says a lot.
We know they were not linked.
But those glitches are problems for your list too. Apparently, four women too weak to be Accepted can more or less match the effects Rand can have. They make Gateways as large as him.
Linking has an advantage - we know that already.
By that, any three Average Aes Sedai should be able to match Rand, if not shield him (Since that requires a much greater advantage).
Whether you say average AS is 20 or 40, three should be able to match him. Yet, one has to be Semrihage for him to feel worried, it seems. Why?
Whether you say average AS is 20 or 40, three should be able to match him. Yet, one has to be Semrihage for him to feel worried, it seems. Why?
I assume this is based on gateways? Very erroneous evidence if you ask me. There's a Talent, and several factors can mess it up like forming a circle.
Then why can't three linked women tackle Rand?
Because they're weaker. Travelling is more than just a weave - see Asmodean's statements on gateway formation.
Here are two quotes...
There was a long silence from the other side of the wall. “How could you stop it? You may be as strong as any of them, now, but neither one of us knows enough yet to stop even one Aes Sedai from shielding us from the Source, and there are dozens of them here.”
And...
The Amyrlin was strength personified. For all her own raw power, the woman on the other side of the table had the knowledge and experience to wind her around a spindle.
There was a long silence from the other side of the wall. “How could you stop it? You may be as strong as any of them, now, but neither one of us knows enough yet to stop even one Aes Sedai from shielding us from the Source, and there are dozens of them here.”
And...
The Amyrlin was strength personified. For all her own raw power, the woman on the other side of the table had the knowledge and experience to wind her around a spindle.
Okay then - I also found a quote from Egwene in that book where she says that any of them could destroy Elaida.
he says nothing of the sort. She says Moggy could have surprised her, and only Nynaeve can match the Forsaken. Neither says she can never challenge Moghedien.
How is 'only Nynaeve can match the Forsaken' and 'she can't challenge Moghedien' different?
By your own list, Egwene is at 50 and Moggy at 60. She can easily challenge Moggy, though she will have no surety of success.
Moggy herself felt that a far from full potential Elayne was trouble.
Moggy herself felt that a far from full potential Elayne was trouble.
I don't think Moghedien is that weak. I'd put her at 70.
So? That's my point. You can state nothing conclusive about the relative strengths of Egwene and Nynaeve. Egwene was damane, Nynaeve was at the cleansing, which makes her even more special.
The cleansing
... right before she gained her full strength. Before that she was making leaps in strength that I showed you but you've ignored those.
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One Power strength - critical analysis of previous posts and some further ideas
- 03/01/2010 07:59:24 AM
2342 Views
I support your view, with maybe a few comments to add...
- 03/01/2010 02:58:05 PM
1055 Views
where is this phantom quote of Egwene "not standing a chance"
- 03/01/2010 05:20:20 PM
756 Views
Here's the real quote
- 03/01/2010 05:38:59 PM
815 Views
Well that quote perfectly illustrates the skewed way in which you interpret the evidence...
- 03/01/2010 06:18:22 PM
780 Views
I also think the quote is specific
- 03/01/2010 06:34:38 PM
781 Views
Skill not Strength is the key that and the potential that another FS was with her
- 03/01/2010 06:51:46 PM
799 Views
Bah
- 03/01/2010 07:13:01 PM
742 Views
Who's arguing that?
- 03/01/2010 07:34:21 PM
716 Views
What ARE you arguing?
- 03/01/2010 07:43:06 PM
782 Views
That there is far more to strength in her quote!
- 03/01/2010 08:05:20 PM
678 Views
Re: That there is far more to strength in her quote!
- 04/01/2010 09:40:05 AM
877 Views
and where do I ever say Elayne is only a small step below Moghedien?
- 04/01/2010 03:08:37 PM
776 Views
You more than imply it with your own list
- 04/01/2010 03:39:06 PM
784 Views
and you are fixated on simple strength to the exclusion of everything else
- 04/01/2010 05:05:54 PM
729 Views
Re: and you are fixated on simple strength to the exclusion of everything else
- 04/01/2010 06:46:45 PM
1119 Views
Tiny Unimportant Objection to "Bell Curve" Point
- 03/01/2010 03:09:55 PM
876 Views
Re: Tiny Unimportant Objection to "Bell Curve" Point
- 03/01/2010 04:39:25 PM
782 Views
I've got a slightly revised opinion than my last post
- 03/01/2010 05:16:39 PM
988 Views
Re: I've got a slightly revised opinion than my last post
- 03/01/2010 06:31:09 PM
912 Views
It's actually not that complicated ... simple math actually
- 03/01/2010 07:08:52 PM
785 Views
Yes, but to think that RJ put that much effort into it is improbable
- 03/01/2010 07:19:13 PM
791 Views
I'm being harsh with one poster who continues to mis-quote things!
- 03/01/2010 07:56:17 PM
707 Views
Re: I'm being harsh with one poster who continues to mis-quote things!
- 04/01/2010 09:50:38 AM
821 Views
Re: I'm being harsh with one poster who continues to mis-quote things!
- 04/01/2010 03:26:10 PM
897 Views
Re: I'm being harsh with one poster who continues to mis-quote things!
- 04/01/2010 03:52:19 PM
768 Views
You are talking out of both sides of your mouth
- 04/01/2010 05:09:15 PM
717 Views
Dude
- 04/01/2010 06:21:28 PM
672 Views
Dude, please go back to Fionwe's post
- 04/01/2010 06:35:03 PM
712 Views
A reply...
- 03/01/2010 06:02:33 PM
718 Views
The Tower sample is skewed allright, but to the upper side of the strength range...
- 03/01/2010 06:36:45 PM
853 Views
Re: A reply...
- 03/01/2010 07:09:55 PM
847 Views
I think distance is related to Strength
- 03/01/2010 07:21:46 PM
765 Views
amusing side note
- 04/01/2010 05:22:39 AM
709 Views
Which is exactly what I envisage the AOL distribution to have looked like...
- 04/01/2010 07:03:51 AM
659 Views
Re: Which is exactly what I envisage the AOL distribution to have looked like...
- 04/01/2010 03:29:47 PM
735 Views
It may sound silly, but did you look at One Power values in the Wheel of Time CCG?
- 05/01/2010 12:56:41 AM
1162 Views
Re: It may sound silly, but did you look at One Power values in the Wheel of Time CCG?
- 05/01/2010 07:33:21 AM
813 Views