I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM
Let me start out by stating the various facts that we know for certain:
1. OP Strength follows a Bell Curve
2. Men are in general stronger than women
3. Lanfear is the strongest woman
4. Rand is the strongest man
5. Egwene is about as strong as Amys and Melaine combined
6. Daigian is the weakest AS
7. Siuan is now less than 50% of her original strength, but still strong enough to be AS
8. 37.5% of Channelers do not have enough strength to qualify as AS
Assumptions I've made:
1. There is one Bell Curve of distribution, but male and female strength have different scales (balanced by dexterity)... I'm trying to square effective and raw strength measures
2. There are 100 levels (just made the math easier)
3. Linking has a 10-15% penalty on raw strength
Okay so here we go...
Looking at a Bell Curve from 1-100 it's mathematical fact that 50 is the mean-median-mode. What we don't know is the unit of measure between each level on the scale. I've made an attempt to figure out how this could work and I think I've come somewhat close...
If we assume that each level for women allows for a woman to draw approximately 4 "units of saidar". Knowing that a man with the same effective strength also has more raw strength I applied a 25% increase to each "unit of saidin", thus each level for men adds 5 rather than 4. That would make our scale 4-400 for women and 5-500 for men, with Lanfear at 400 being as effective as Rand at 500. In effect we now have a 250 unit man and a 200 unit woman as the respective mean-median-mode yet both root back to 50 on the 100 point scale.
What does that leave us for levels?
If we assume Moiraine is a 50 (200), then it would in fact mean that in order to match Rand it would take 3 women of her strength to be roughly the raw power equivalent to the strongest male. It also squares with Siuan losing more than half of her overall strength and still remaining strong enough to be AS (if she lost 60% she would be about an 80 unit woman and probably right at the cusp of AS minimum).
Egwene would fall at about 320 (effective level 80), more than half Rand in Raw power, but linked with another woman her strength only a little stronger than him, close enough that he could still win a direct confrontation and shielding him would be an uphill battle. Also, linked with Romanda and Lelaine (200 each) still not enough stronger than a FS level male to be 100% certain of victory. Aviendha's assertion that Egwene is as strong as Amy's and Melaine combined is pretty close here if Amys is a 192 (level 48 ) and Melaine a 152 (level 38 ) she's pretty close if not 100% accurate.
Where does that place the "average AS", or even the majority of AS?
I'd say modern AS standards are low enough that a level 18 woman (Daigian) probably represents the lowest, but Level 20 being the more likely "minimum" ... which would be about where Siuan falls now if she lost 60% of her original strength.
Obviously we know that the majority of AS fall below the ranks of Melaine, so I'd venture the guess that 85% or more AS are between level 20 and level 35 ( 80-140) ... this matches up with comments about 13 weakest sisters could handle Rand as they would be more than 2x his raw strength... and even 6 weak sisters could probably maintain a shield on him once it was woven. And it still maps nicely to the 3 needed to hold Semirhage and 2 for Egwene.
So where do the Forsaken fall you ask? Well, on a Bell Curve they should all fall in the top few percent of available strength... which with units of measure added in, there are enough differences to account for the various levels and to account for the lack of outright fear in the top rungs.
Moghedien is clearly the weakest so I'd call her a 93 (372)
Asmodean is probably the weakest male and thus less effective than some of the stronger women I'd say he's a 95 (475)
Mesaana could be also be a 95 (380)
Be'lal/Balthamel seem to be the next males on the list probably 96 (480) or Mesaana could fall here (384)
Semirhage, Sammael, and Rhavin could be 97 (388 and 485) Nynaeve probably fits here.
Graendal and Aginor at 98 (392 and 490) and likely Sharina
Cyndane (Alivia) and Demandred are at 99 (396 and 495)
Lanfear/Ishamael and Rand at 100 (400 and 500)
1. OP Strength follows a Bell Curve
2. Men are in general stronger than women
3. Lanfear is the strongest woman
4. Rand is the strongest man
5. Egwene is about as strong as Amys and Melaine combined
6. Daigian is the weakest AS
7. Siuan is now less than 50% of her original strength, but still strong enough to be AS
8. 37.5% of Channelers do not have enough strength to qualify as AS
Assumptions I've made:
1. There is one Bell Curve of distribution, but male and female strength have different scales (balanced by dexterity)... I'm trying to square effective and raw strength measures
2. There are 100 levels (just made the math easier)
3. Linking has a 10-15% penalty on raw strength
Okay so here we go...
Looking at a Bell Curve from 1-100 it's mathematical fact that 50 is the mean-median-mode. What we don't know is the unit of measure between each level on the scale. I've made an attempt to figure out how this could work and I think I've come somewhat close...
If we assume that each level for women allows for a woman to draw approximately 4 "units of saidar". Knowing that a man with the same effective strength also has more raw strength I applied a 25% increase to each "unit of saidin", thus each level for men adds 5 rather than 4. That would make our scale 4-400 for women and 5-500 for men, with Lanfear at 400 being as effective as Rand at 500. In effect we now have a 250 unit man and a 200 unit woman as the respective mean-median-mode yet both root back to 50 on the 100 point scale.
What does that leave us for levels?
If we assume Moiraine is a 50 (200), then it would in fact mean that in order to match Rand it would take 3 women of her strength to be roughly the raw power equivalent to the strongest male. It also squares with Siuan losing more than half of her overall strength and still remaining strong enough to be AS (if she lost 60% she would be about an 80 unit woman and probably right at the cusp of AS minimum).
Egwene would fall at about 320 (effective level 80), more than half Rand in Raw power, but linked with another woman her strength only a little stronger than him, close enough that he could still win a direct confrontation and shielding him would be an uphill battle. Also, linked with Romanda and Lelaine (200 each) still not enough stronger than a FS level male to be 100% certain of victory. Aviendha's assertion that Egwene is as strong as Amy's and Melaine combined is pretty close here if Amys is a 192 (level 48 ) and Melaine a 152 (level 38 ) she's pretty close if not 100% accurate.
Where does that place the "average AS", or even the majority of AS?
I'd say modern AS standards are low enough that a level 18 woman (Daigian) probably represents the lowest, but Level 20 being the more likely "minimum" ... which would be about where Siuan falls now if she lost 60% of her original strength.
Obviously we know that the majority of AS fall below the ranks of Melaine, so I'd venture the guess that 85% or more AS are between level 20 and level 35 ( 80-140) ... this matches up with comments about 13 weakest sisters could handle Rand as they would be more than 2x his raw strength... and even 6 weak sisters could probably maintain a shield on him once it was woven. And it still maps nicely to the 3 needed to hold Semirhage and 2 for Egwene.
So where do the Forsaken fall you ask? Well, on a Bell Curve they should all fall in the top few percent of available strength... which with units of measure added in, there are enough differences to account for the various levels and to account for the lack of outright fear in the top rungs.
Moghedien is clearly the weakest so I'd call her a 93 (372)
Asmodean is probably the weakest male and thus less effective than some of the stronger women I'd say he's a 95 (475)
Mesaana could be also be a 95 (380)
Be'lal/Balthamel seem to be the next males on the list probably 96 (480) or Mesaana could fall here (384)
Semirhage, Sammael, and Rhavin could be 97 (388 and 485) Nynaeve probably fits here.
Graendal and Aginor at 98 (392 and 490) and likely Sharina
Cyndane (Alivia) and Demandred are at 99 (396 and 495)
Lanfear/Ishamael and Rand at 100 (400 and 500)
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 23/12/2009 at 07:27:21 PM
I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates
20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM
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Few glaring errors...
20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM
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Re: Few glaring errors...
21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM
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You don't get it, do you...
21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM
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Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear?
21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM
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What you are missing is that
21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM
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I'm not missing it at all..
21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM
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Let's try matching that with the actual text
22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM
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Not correct...
22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM
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Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence
22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM
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You're reading the evidence wrong.
22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM
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RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy
22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM
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I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH
20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM
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Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range...
20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM
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Corrections
21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM
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No...
21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM
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True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM*
21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM
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Not if you point out that the average AS is not as strong as the overall average channeler
25/12/2009 04:30:17 AM
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yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers
21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM
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Perhaps...
21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM
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I've always hated bell curves
21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM
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The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average...
21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM
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and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve
22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM
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Why?
22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM
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Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the
22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM
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Always go back to the evidence...
22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM
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I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this
23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM
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I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments
24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM
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And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem
29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM
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I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM
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Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM
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Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength...
22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM
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I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength
23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM
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How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM*
23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM
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Seriously go re-read the series, how can you have missed that Traveling is a Talent?
23/12/2009 04:54:51 PM
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It is a weave, the knowledge of which guarantees that you can use it, if you are strong enough...
23/12/2009 05:35:36 PM
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Yet every AS can Heal to a degree and Cloud Dancing involves weaves too
23/12/2009 05:41:42 PM
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Lews Therin can't Heal. Aginor can't Heal. If you don't have the Talent, you can't do it. *NM*
23/12/2009 05:52:02 PM
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LTT and Aginor have "Little Ability" with Healing
23/12/2009 06:02:13 PM
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Because the channelers THEMSELVES don't use Healing to judge each other's strength...
23/12/2009 06:06:58 PM
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The Channelers state that there is a minimum level of strength to make the Weave work
23/12/2009 06:11:55 PM
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No, it makes her 25% as strong as Rand! Thanks for proving my model to be virtually perfect!
23/12/2009 06:36:53 PM
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This is true, however...
23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM
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Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it...
23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM
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Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation
23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM
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Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule...
23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM
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I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling
23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM
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Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM*
23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM
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Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then?
23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM
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And there you have it...Thank you.
23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM
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And linked with Romanda and Lelaine
23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM
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Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM*
23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM
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No more than yours is!
23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population *NM*
26/12/2009 12:41:01 PM
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Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population
26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM
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Goodness
31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM
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I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author
31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM
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No you are not
31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM
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Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this
26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM
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The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution
26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM
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And RJ knew his maths (and you don't)
31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM
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I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution
31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM
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